FTL + the italian "smart" way: a safety threat?
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Chill down, Daniel_11000!
Here's a funny move, made by an Italian, to help you relax.
The film is dedicated to those who believe that Italians behave the same as all other Europeans.
Enjoy it!
Here's a funny move, made by an Italian, to help you relax.
The film is dedicated to those who believe that Italians behave the same as all other Europeans.
Enjoy it!
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Thank you, Sabenaboy.
Very famous , old cartoon, made by a very famous italian cartoonist.
I appreciate your help to chill down, but the fact remain : as we says in Italy " all the world is like your village" , which plainly translates as "what happens here happens everywhere", with some peculiarities, I am sure . Seems however that sometime people from other countries have a too much high consideration of themself, and this behaviour has been highlighted in this post, where apparently a lack of information on Italian regulation led to generalize the airline business in this Country
Very famous , old cartoon, made by a very famous italian cartoonist.
I appreciate your help to chill down, but the fact remain : as we says in Italy " all the world is like your village" , which plainly translates as "what happens here happens everywhere", with some peculiarities, I am sure . Seems however that sometime people from other countries have a too much high consideration of themself, and this behaviour has been highlighted in this post, where apparently a lack of information on Italian regulation led to generalize the airline business in this Country
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Daniel_11000,
I personally know quite a few ex-sabenapilots who flew for Italian charter companies after the Sabena bankruptcy.
I have indeed heard about monstrous duty period being scheduled in some of these Italian charter companies. Even if some of these ridiculous schedules (as in post 1) are legal in Italy and the rest of Europe, I've never heard about them being actually applied any where else then in Italy.
So, unless you're a manager at one of these companies, there's no reason for you to feel offended by the remarks that have been made in this thread.
I like Italy very much, but Italy is not perfect. Accept it!
I'm Belgian. Belgium is certainly not perfect either. But our chocolates, beer and BELGIAN fries are!
Cheers,
Sabenaboy
I personally know quite a few ex-sabenapilots who flew for Italian charter companies after the Sabena bankruptcy.
I have indeed heard about monstrous duty period being scheduled in some of these Italian charter companies. Even if some of these ridiculous schedules (as in post 1) are legal in Italy and the rest of Europe, I've never heard about them being actually applied any where else then in Italy.
So, unless you're a manager at one of these companies, there's no reason for you to feel offended by the remarks that have been made in this thread.
I like Italy very much, but Italy is not perfect. Accept it!
I'm Belgian. Belgium is certainly not perfect either. But our chocolates, beer and BELGIAN fries are!
Cheers,
Sabenaboy
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The thread began with this sentence:
"At present time Italian FTL (which they claim to be the easa ones) have no duty time limits for a 24 hours period, but just a (ridiculous) 60 hours in 7 consecutive days limit...."
as I already posted the FTL regulation is almost the same all around EASA countries(hoping for improvements), but I am not so sure like sabenaboy that italians charter companies are the worst regarding the rosters.
Tell me why so many european pilots worked and are still working(with permanent contracts) with these so "bad" companies....
"At present time Italian FTL (which they claim to be the easa ones) have no duty time limits for a 24 hours period, but just a (ridiculous) 60 hours in 7 consecutive days limit...."
as I already posted the FTL regulation is almost the same all around EASA countries(hoping for improvements), but I am not so sure like sabenaboy that italians charter companies are the worst regarding the rosters.
Tell me why so many european pilots worked and are still working(with permanent contracts) with these so "bad" companies....
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Where we work, at any given moment, may not be where we choose to work, but rather where we happened to find work.
That is the difference. It is not because we are grateful to be in employment that we have to sing the praises of companies who are only capable of applying the letter of the law but not the spirit of it, in whichever country they may be/or operate in.
BTW Daniel, I am not from the land of Sarko, and most definitely not anti-Italian, I loved the time I spent in MXP in my rented house in Stresa overlooking Lago Maggiore, but that doesn't make me blind to the way I saw things running amok, seemingly unsupervised, or only very superficially, by ENAC.
The worst excesses were usually perpetrated by permanent employees willing to do ANYTHING, legal or otherwise, that us contractors had already refused.
Not mud slinging, but that was, and probably still is, a factual description of the way things were/are done in some Italian companies.
That is the difference. It is not because we are grateful to be in employment that we have to sing the praises of companies who are only capable of applying the letter of the law but not the spirit of it, in whichever country they may be/or operate in.
BTW Daniel, I am not from the land of Sarko, and most definitely not anti-Italian, I loved the time I spent in MXP in my rented house in Stresa overlooking Lago Maggiore, but that doesn't make me blind to the way I saw things running amok, seemingly unsupervised, or only very superficially, by ENAC.
The worst excesses were usually perpetrated by permanent employees willing to do ANYTHING, legal or otherwise, that us contractors had already refused.
Not mud slinging, but that was, and probably still is, a factual description of the way things were/are done in some Italian companies.
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Originally Posted by eez
Tell me why so many european pilots worked and are still working(with permanent contracts) with these so "bad" companies and why they are not working for Thomas Cook or others.....
1. They make (a lot) more money in Italy then in Belgian
2. There's not enough pilot jobs in Belgium
If there's one thing I dislike more then people making cliché remarks about other countries or nationalities, it must be people that think their country is perfect simply because it is their OWN country.
So, stand at...eez, please.
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..so in the name of the money you can accept everythink, I don't think is only for these two reasons(may be for someone) that they want to fly in Italy.
If you read carefully what I written, I never said Italians are the best companies (there are a lot of problems like everywhere), but , I just said We are not cowboys and that the Italian regulation regarding FTL isn't different from others...
If you read carefully what I written, I never said Italians are the best companies (there are a lot of problems like everywhere), but , I just said We are not cowboys and that the Italian regulation regarding FTL isn't different from others...
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Sabenaboy:in my opinion, you completely missed the points I was referring to in my posts, and in my answer to captplaystation. I have nothing against opinions expressed in this thread, what is very un-professional (i.e. very un-pprune) is the ways in which they are expressed, and their generalisations . This thread started with an honest description of alleged violations, and some less informed, but still polite, opinions about possible lack of rules on FTL in Italy.
However, at one point, somebody jumped in the discussion with statements like “…try getting an Italian to be a witness for anything. “ or “the only thing ENAC enforced or gave some oversight to was their own coffee breaks”
As you can understand is this type of insult which is very unpleasant (to say the least), and an answer, my answer , was needed ; I hope that you now realize that I am not offended by ‘remarks’ or by ’opinions’ , but only by silly , free insults .
As you can see on the various post in this thread , both myself and I am sure mr Eez (I do not know if he is Italian), we are not thinking that Italy is perfect ; in fact, we Italians are considered , and consider ourselves ( contrary to, let’s say , French people) very little proud of our nation, and we are very prone to auto-punishment . As well, I (we) accept that Italy is not perfect, but in none of my ( or Eez posts) can be found any statement which can be interpreted in any other way, so I do really not understand your last comment (“ Right or wrong, my Country”)
Please be assured, that myself, as yourself , I dislike very much people that think that their country is perfect simply because it is their own country, or that just prioritize Countries when they refer to other ‘civilized world’ ,as if they are part of a blessed country.
I hope that this off-topic post can be a useful suggestion to not-so–polite ppruners (I am not referring to you, Sabenaboy) on how to make interesting and competent posts.
However, at one point, somebody jumped in the discussion with statements like “…try getting an Italian to be a witness for anything. “ or “the only thing ENAC enforced or gave some oversight to was their own coffee breaks”
As you can understand is this type of insult which is very unpleasant (to say the least), and an answer, my answer , was needed ; I hope that you now realize that I am not offended by ‘remarks’ or by ’opinions’ , but only by silly , free insults .
As you can see on the various post in this thread , both myself and I am sure mr Eez (I do not know if he is Italian), we are not thinking that Italy is perfect ; in fact, we Italians are considered , and consider ourselves ( contrary to, let’s say , French people) very little proud of our nation, and we are very prone to auto-punishment . As well, I (we) accept that Italy is not perfect, but in none of my ( or Eez posts) can be found any statement which can be interpreted in any other way, so I do really not understand your last comment (“ Right or wrong, my Country”)
Please be assured, that myself, as yourself , I dislike very much people that think that their country is perfect simply because it is their own country, or that just prioritize Countries when they refer to other ‘civilized world’ ,as if they are part of a blessed country.
I hope that this off-topic post can be a useful suggestion to not-so–polite ppruners (I am not referring to you, Sabenaboy) on how to make interesting and competent posts.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Can we therefore summarise for the OP to avoid all this c**p?
There is no duty time limit in a 24 hour period in EUOPS (other than a max of 24 hrs duty
)
"Do you know of any other airline in the civilized world using such kind of roster practices?" - Yes.quite a few.
There is no duty time limit in a 24 hour period in EUOPS (other than a max of 24 hrs duty
)"Do you know of any other airline in the civilized world using such kind of roster practices?" - Yes.quite a few.
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I flew for airlines in both "civilized and less civilized countries", including Italy for quite a while.
What I have witnessed in Italy, from an aviation standpoint, I would describe as "definitely not very civilized".
FTL's and scheduling practices are very often borderline and exceptions become the norm not to mention management's pressures and the authority's blind eyes.
I can't say I have seen such things say in Germany or the UK....I surely have elsewhere more east or south however....
And by the way, I'm Italian!
What I have witnessed in Italy, from an aviation standpoint, I would describe as "definitely not very civilized".
FTL's and scheduling practices are very often borderline and exceptions become the norm not to mention management's pressures and the authority's blind eyes.
I can't say I have seen such things say in Germany or the UK....I surely have elsewhere more east or south however....
And by the way, I'm Italian!
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Talking FTL's heres a blast from the past.
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-224631.html
Any mention of crew changes? I dont think so and I heard the double crew were on duty for 34+ hours. Maybe they got extra flight pay from the "slush fund". Needless to say this violation was overlooked.
Dont tell the Beancounters else we'll all be flying with a president on board.
ref: TAIPEI, Taiwan VV Former President Lee Teng-hui may be under suspicion that he, like Chen Shui-bian, might have laundered a slush fund, according to sources close to the Special Counsel under direct control of Procurator-General Chen Tsung-ming.
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-224631.html
Any mention of crew changes? I dont think so and I heard the double crew were on duty for 34+ hours. Maybe they got extra flight pay from the "slush fund". Needless to say this violation was overlooked.
Dont tell the Beancounters else we'll all be flying with a president on board.
ref: TAIPEI, Taiwan VV Former President Lee Teng-hui may be under suspicion that he, like Chen Shui-bian, might have laundered a slush fund, according to sources close to the Special Counsel under direct control of Procurator-General Chen Tsung-ming.
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Some Italian charter/schedule operators have the mentality of children and as such ENAC(Italian CAA) should be acting as the parents. The children will do whatever they have to, to get the upper hand. It is the duty of the parents to keep a controlling eye on them, and keep them within the rules and regulations. But, what happens if those regulations are flawed, flaunted or just ignored!
Of course, we all understand the disadvantage of a level playing field.
FTL's in Italy were appalling with respect to potential crew fatigue and abuse, by certain operators. Recent changes have addressed many anomalies.
Of course, some operators did not roster to such extremes, however, you had no protection if they decided to..(other than job on the line)...and some are far more guilty than others!
As far as in-flight relief for 3 crew duty extension..I can tell you having worked in Italy for 8 years, I could never understand where ENAC drew the line on that one. You operated...and that was that! Again, this issue is now clarified, but it is up to ENAC to enforce the new rules.
For the record, I spent 8 happy years flying from Italy, to some of the most beautiful locations in the World, with some of the most fabulous crews, and just maybe,..... that balanced the equation for me!
To all crews in BPA and my ex AEI colleagues...great guys and gals and happy years spent!
Of course, we all understand the disadvantage of a level playing field.
FTL's in Italy were appalling with respect to potential crew fatigue and abuse, by certain operators. Recent changes have addressed many anomalies.
Of course, some operators did not roster to such extremes, however, you had no protection if they decided to..(other than job on the line)...and some are far more guilty than others!
As far as in-flight relief for 3 crew duty extension..I can tell you having worked in Italy for 8 years, I could never understand where ENAC drew the line on that one. You operated...and that was that! Again, this issue is now clarified, but it is up to ENAC to enforce the new rules.
For the record, I spent 8 happy years flying from Italy, to some of the most beautiful locations in the World, with some of the most fabulous crews, and just maybe,..... that balanced the equation for me!
To all crews in BPA and my ex AEI colleagues...great guys and gals and happy years spent!
Last edited by Yaw String; 29th Oct 2009 at 13:35.
