Pilots protest over flying hours

[FlyingOfficerKite]

To answer the comments, my experience with 'colourful' loco was over 3 years ago - a bad period in some respects and I think things may have improved.

All I have stated is factual about incidents and lifestyle at that time - that's how it was for me and that's how it felt at the time. Period.

To say that aircrew are worse than the airlines -

If this is the case, you are doing the wrong job because you morally you are worse than the organisations you work for.

- displays a complete and utter lack of understanding of both the airline industry and the psyche of pilots.

Many pilots are ex-military. It is hard to explain (I don't fully understand the mentality) but many seem to feel if they don't 'complete the mission' it would be a kind of failure - lack of moral fibre - to admit they were tired and fatigued. I have never fully understood the 'pilot mentality', probably because I have always worked outside of aviation as well as within it. If you stand back pilots are a breed to themselves in some respects.

To be tired or fatigued is subjective and I have seen pilots who are completely drained turning up for work as if the future of the Nation depended on them.

Personally I have only 'bailed out' once due to excessive fatigue. Maybe I should have on more than that one occasion? (and I felt guilty about that - as though I was 'soft', wimpish, can't take the pace)

My policy was to carry out the 'handling' sectors when I was bright and bushy tailed and 'non-handling' sectors when I felt jaded. Trouble occurred when we both felt like that!

If, as Sky Wave states:

I have to say that I am unable to relate to any of the experiences that you allude to

, maybe it's time for the pilots of the 36 nations to pack up their banners and go home - because obviously there isn't a problem, everyone is happy, well-rested and the issue is all in the minds of the under-worked, overpaid pilots that the public perceive.

FOK

PS: Sky Wave, I hope you successfully removed the bullet from your foot?!

[snaproll3480]

Here is another article...

Pilots call for action on fatigue - The National Newspaper

[FlyingRabbit]

I find it curious (I was going to say funny, but nothing funny about this subject) that some of you guys blame "Joe Public" for this one as well. Yes, I agree that people will want to get as much as they can for as little as possible. So what? People pay what airlines ask them to. Or not, if they do not have the money. But to compromise safety because "this is what the public wants to pay for" is pathetic.

[silverhawk]

Insidious

Fatigue is a killer.

As an individual you do NOT recognise until too late.

Regardless of EASA regs, I will call fatigued next time it happens.

Last time, and first, was under CAP471, and I actually had no idea. That's the nature of the beast.

Suspect you are not fit to fly? Don't fly






Tiredness and fatigue are massively different.

[RAT 5]

From UK CAA Gobal Fatal Accident Review a rather damning observatio over 10 years or more
"75% of a/c fatal accidents have had a human causal factor."[list][*]omission of action/inappropriate action 38%[*]flight handling 29%[*]lack of situational awareness 27%[*]poor professional judgement/airmanship

The same CAA medical department has said that deprived of regular quality sleep a pilot can be worse off than a couple of drinks. The causal factors above will all be effected, markedly, by lack of sharpness and calm relaxed attitude. Yet this same CAA, and others, allows the degredation of FTL's. Getting out of bed at 04.00 5 mornings consecutively and then working 13 hours is not a recipe to reduce the incident/accident rate; including on the roads afterwards. Remember, these statistics are only the fatal crashes. What about the near incidents that never go reported. The list would be longer than Warren Beaty's girl friends.

Do they talk to each other in the various CAA's?

[pontifex]

I am surprised to see that, in this whole thread, there is only one reference to "controlled rest". During my (short) time in the industry after a lifetime in another branch of flying, we frequently and openly used to indulge in intentional, prebreifed and controlled power naps. They were of particular value in the wee small hours returning from somewhere like Rhodes or Cyprus. 20 minutes can set you up wonderfully well with bright, alert consciousness for at least 3 hours with no adverse effect on subsequent sleep. I was, and still am, sold on it. I consider it a great safety tool. And I think it should be discussed far more; not least on this forum.

[RAT 5]

At CPL flying college ikn 1975 a student pilot was engrossed in Transcendental meditation. He tried to explain to the rest of us the merits. It seems at the time the CAA was getting interested in long-haul pilot alertness, or lack of it. Not all carriers had bunks and heavy crew. TM does not send you to sleep, you are still aware of your surrounding etc. but are in a low state of mental activity and the batteries are being charged. They wanted to research its approved use in the flight deck. Thus, they were aware of a problem, or pending one, in 1975. Just think what has happened in the last 34 years and it doesn't give you a heap load of faith.

[Ladusvala]

Pontifex, do you believe that the FTL´s should be based on power napping?

Power napping is only possible on longer sectors and cannot be a universal solution.

What do you passengers think, do you like the thought of sometimes only one pilot awake?
Who knows if he also falls asleep, can the flight attendants check in on the pilots often enough without disturbing the power nap?

Personally I see power napping as an "emergency tool" and I don´t want to base my working day on it.

[pontifex]

Ladusvala. I totally agree with all you say; in no way do I advocate power napping as a tool to extend the FTL day. However, the problem with us pilots is that we are humans (although I know some of us can walk on water!). And, being human, we are imperfect, inconsistent and fallible. And we should be willing to recognise this fact. So, sometimes we will find ourselves desperate to close our eyes on the sort of sector I previously referred to through no fault of our own. How sensible, therefore, to have an approved means to ensure we reach our destination alert and without the hazard of an unavoidable micro-sleep at a critical stage on a difficult approach. Of course the cabin staff are told and required to contact the FD at (shall we say) 5 minute intervals to ensure the FP is awake. Done properly it is quite safe, and certainly safer than the alternative. Balance of disadvantage if you like. I fear it might be unwise to tell the pax about it though.

[BombsGone]

As usual in any fatigue discussion lots of people advocate the "you're the best judge of your fatigue and should not fly when fatigued" line. The first thing you loose when fatigued is the higher level decision making skills. For instance making a reasonable assessment of your own fatigue! In the system I am familiar with there is always an independant check of the fatigue level of the crew with regard to not just the rules but observing them prior to flight.

I have also heard of airlines in Australia that have patterns that cause fatigue such as FlyingOfficerKite describes.

Bombs.

[RAT 5]

The next thing you lose when fatigued for the 3rd event is your job. You will be told you are not suitable for the industry if you can't fit in to FTL's. You've had the pre-flight chance to manage your sleep, and obviously you can't, so goodbye. Such middle aged attitude, but alive and well in non union aviation. (This is not a pro-union campaign; just a fact of life.)

[Marcel_MPH]

Another article on this:

Worldwide-Aviation.net - Naps In The Cockpit: A Brilliant Safety Idea?

[308GT4]

In our modern world and way of thinking, NOTHING is more important to people and especially companies, than MONEY.Money takes priority over all other factors, and yes, that does include human lives. But, and here's the secret: we deny this utterly and at all times!Companies will make sure that any and all threats to their money are enhanced by whatever means. So you get them hiring the services of other bodies to do anything to make more money, or to prevent the loss of money by it being spent on wastefull ideas.(safety and maintenance)We ourselves are an example of the worship of money above all else. We will knife fellow pilots right between the shoulder blades to just be one-up on them, financially speaking.The companies will go out of their way to get a reflection of "flight time and duty" that suites them. They are able to spend much larger sums of money on research by companies that are willing to portray the reasearch in the companies best light and favour. Just look at all the "Enviromental impact research" done by companies who will then destroy the enviroment where they are working to get their maximum money. The enviroment does not count for anything with the bean-counters, only the money.And, this is what we choose too. Money above all else. I so often wonder, when we now have this money, (more than your neighbour), what exactly do we do with it? Spend it? On what or whom? Hoard it? For retirement when we are old?? Security?Mainly, to be one-up on our neighbours. The ego thing.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

A good interesting topic being discussed here.

Were do I start?

I don't know if I am alone in feeling this but over the past 4 months or so I have being having heavy 'Withdrawal' symptons with this Flying game & PPrune.

As much so, Alot of the time after making some 900 + posts on PPrune I honestly don't get any 'Buzz' anymore about posting on here.

This is a good knowledgeable site, But simply the same conversations 3 x over about usually the same subject and the same people.

Some posters just seem to post 'Anything' however trivial it seems to be.
And it always seems to be the same 'Hardcore' of members talking.

With some members 'Barely' hitting 100 posts in 10 years.

That's entirely their choice and I am not citing offence.

We all known or (Should) that this Airline/Airport business is no way near what it was (Even 5 years ago)

The changes are just about happening daily in alot of companies etc.

We also know that the pure 'Enjoyment and buzz' of flying and wearing a proud uniform + loyalty has all gone now.

Airlines are just simply 'Financial Institutions' in disguise, And some companies appear, Talk & behave like banks.

Lets be right, After flying into Palma more X than eating a hot meal it just feels 'Boring' to put it simply.

I know it is just a job, But NO it shouldn't be JUST a job it should be an Enjoyable job after all the years of funding training etc.

I am a firm believer in 'Enjoyment' and I don't usually undertake something that doesn't appeal to me or gives me any kind of a 'Buzz'

But I feel the World issues and the current financial 'Mess' which I would say was created by 'Wall St' in the first place coupled with Airlines and Airports running their companies like financial institutions rather than before when they smelt & felt like Airlines & Airports.

Look at MAN Airport, You would think it was the Trafford Centre now with a shop or a sales stand and adverts everywhere.

Don't see many 'Pleasant' pictures in the terminals of families getting onto Aircraft and enjoying themselves at the same time, Instead it is just sales sales sales and more car hire signs than ever!

Aside from all this all the Aircraft now seem to look the same and many sound the same are either A320's or 737's with the good old firm 757 still popular, A good 25 years ago you could go to the Airports and still see 1-11's, Dc9's, Tristars, DC10's, Viscounts, Concorde etc.

Now it is just boring from many Aircraft enthusiasts point of view?

In time we may just see as little as 2 types of machine - A320 & A330?

I would be very surprised if Boeing started producing in large no's again.

The Dreamliner seems to be delay after delay.

And sadly maybe 5 or so Airlines still afloat?

The staff who are currently flying will not be replaced in great numbers when they retire, And sadly would be pilots saving their money and working in Tesco's!

lets be honest and say that all that may be left is just 'Very' large supermarkets with city centres dissapearing fast.

We never hear any of these famous entrepreauneurs talking about the Airline Industry, Even Sir Richard branson seems to have gone quiet over the past x amount of years.

We need 5 Sir Richard's to keep this industry alive, Not just Virgin & Ryanair, Ryanair who I think seem to think that they have already made enough money, But want to make even more money.

How much money is enough?

Once a company has made millions after millions I can't see it enjoyable anymore, The most obvious time would be when you make the 1st million, After that then it is just printing money.

I am more motivated when I have less money than when I have more, The more you earn the more you spend.

I would think the Bcal, Britannia, Dan Air, Early Monarch days were more enjoyable to many compared with today.

There's still enough Airtravellers but the quantity is now not the quality it was.

The 'Excitement & Buzz' has all but gone i'm afraid to say.

Has the 'Fire' finally gone out?

[XX621]

ByAlphaIndia: I can't help but fear you have made a number of valid observations.

Hopefully, others will disagree....

[PT6Driver]

Mr Angry
The Easa rules came into effect in 2008 but the caa in the uk have negotiated an opt out because our rule (cap 371) is far superior to the EU legislation (subpart Q). That is why we in the uk all still operate the we have always done with no change.
This will all come to an end in 2012 because EASA will become the legal authority over FTL (and other areas) and will not allow any opt outs - all countries companies etc will have to obay the new law.

So we have to act to get this changed before then because you cannot change after the event.
In an ideal world cap 371 would replace subpart Q but that is unlikly. We must try to get Subpqrt Q amended based on sientific research.

Can anyone give me a link to the offending document ?