Air India pilots, crew slug it out at 30,000 ft
Join Date: May 2009
Location: China (CGO)
Age: 75
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rainboe
The one I feel sorry for there is the poor chap in the middle, the flight engineer. I bet he needed headache pills afterwards.
No empathy for the captain for an ungentlemanly sense of hospitality. Maybe it's just me, but I'm deeply relieved whenever an ex of mine has found a replacement.
Little empathy for the woman in the middle: discretion is the better part of valor and did she really need to thumb her nose at her ex right where a male can be really vulnerable (i.e. on the job), especially when it puts third parties at risk.
Little empathy for the co-pilot: when you're not top dog on the hill and push comes to shove, you kiss up.
As for AF, their response was bureaucratically correct but created a safety risk.
People are people.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AI is reporting that at no time was the cockpit left unmanned, PIC has come on record and admitted that the cockpit was left unmanned for 10 mins while the flight was over Pakistan.
Does anyone know if Karachi ATC tried contacting them for 10 mins? What would the ramifications been if they received no response from an Indian flag carrier overflying their territory. Chances are they would have had some trigger happy company up pretty soon next to them including from the Indian side who would have treated it as a Hijack if they crossed over with no com.
I think a more serious look into this should be taken beyond where the he said she said is going on. There is more to it than meets the eye. PIC should have landed at Jaipur and had the CVR info recorded if he so strongly felt that the FA where in correct. Co pilot bleeding, leavng cockpit unattended, hardly a minor incident that would allow any sane person not to terminate the flight. Not only did they carry on to Lucknow but then further onto Delhi.
Any information on the commander and captain? Ages hours on type etc. Might shed some light on their maturity and this constant battle of Indian vs expat crew.
Does anyone know if Karachi ATC tried contacting them for 10 mins? What would the ramifications been if they received no response from an Indian flag carrier overflying their territory. Chances are they would have had some trigger happy company up pretty soon next to them including from the Indian side who would have treated it as a Hijack if they crossed over with no com.
I think a more serious look into this should be taken beyond where the he said she said is going on. There is more to it than meets the eye. PIC should have landed at Jaipur and had the CVR info recorded if he so strongly felt that the FA where in correct. Co pilot bleeding, leavng cockpit unattended, hardly a minor incident that would allow any sane person not to terminate the flight. Not only did they carry on to Lucknow but then further onto Delhi.
Any information on the commander and captain? Ages hours on type etc. Might shed some light on their maturity and this constant battle of Indian vs expat crew.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: US
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Captain, Ranbir Arora and the male purser have been suspended by AI. Not fired. The Captain will be back, rest assured.
Last edited by screwballburling; 6th Oct 2009 at 17:56.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Turkey
Age: 77
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air India pilots, crew slug it out at 30,000 ft
Aircrew rage breaks out on Air India flight
Los Angeles Times
NEW DELHI — The sight of airline cabin crews trying to mollify enraged passengers has become all too common. But a recent Air India flight added a twist when crew members mid-flight started punching each other in front of startled passengers.
Accounts of what happened differ now that everyone's back on the ground. Exactly who started the brawl and why got a bit lost in the clouds, though one flight attendant has accused a crew member of trying to molest her.
What no one disputes is that with New Delhi-bound Flight IC-844 cruising at 30,000 feet over Pakistan at around 4 a.m. Saturday, the cockpit and cabin crews broke into fisticuffs. The ruckus spilled from the cockpit into the galley area in full view of the 106 passengers, prompting the pilot to threaten an emergency landing in Karachi, the commercial capital of India's longtime adversary.
The flight managed to stay on course from the United Arab Emirates to the Indian city of Lucknow and then Delhi.
The pilot and chief purser will probably stay on terra firma for awhile following their suspension Tuesday by Air India pending an investigation into the fight and allegations of sexual harassment.
“What a scandal, man,” said A.J.S. Walia, a former Indian vice air marshal, now head of Sikorsky Aircraft's Indian operation. “What an immature act on everyone's part.”
With regulators, analysts and the media fretting over the safety implications, the national-flag carrier quickly sought to reassure the public that the cockpit was never unmanned. At least one media report suggested, however, that both pilots were well out of their seats during the melee.
Police are probing alleged “assault or use of criminal force against a woman with intent to outrage her modesty.”
A spat started at Sharjah airport in the United Arab Emirates during a pre-flight check, according to local media, official statements and information leaked from an ongoing investigation.
Based on flight attendant Komal's version—the 24-year old only provided her first name—her take-off announcement angered flight commander Ranbeer Arora, who called her into the cockpit and, along with copilot Aditya Chopra, sharply criticized her, making her feel “uncomfortable as a woman.”
Komal said she left the Airbus A320 cockpit and explained to flight purser Amit Khanna what happened. The two were then called back into the cockpit, Komal told reporters, at which point the pilots became aggressive and pushed her out, bruising her and leaving the purser and pilots to go at it.
Another flight attendant, Chhavi Jaggarwal, said in a statement that Arora hit Komal and that the two pilots used abusive language and appeared livid that Komal hadn't greeted them respectfully.
“She was totally shaken up and was crying and she had bruises on her hand as if she was manhandled,” Jaggarwal said. “Even business-class passengers were standing and observing everything.”
In his version, the flight commander said he queried Komal about her tardiness in completing various procedures. A few minutes later, purser Khanna banged aggressively on the cockpit door, entered and used “un-parliamentary language.” When co-pilot Chopra rose to evict Khanna, Arora said, the co-pilot was manhandled by Khanna, leaving Chopra's lips bloody.
Whatever the details, the pilots would have been badly distracted, experts said. Furthermore, the incident took place at around dawn when the body's circadian rhythms tend to be at a low point.
“The commander should never have compromised safety,” said Sajed Mumtaz, a former Air India trainer and flight supervisor. “You wait and handle these problems on the ground.”
The incident reflects a long-standing divide between cockpit and flight crews. “Since time immemorial, pilots have always been high-handed,” said Bhavna Tiwani, a longtime flight attendant, now a teacher at the Frankfinn Air Hostess Training Academy in New Delhi.
That said, the captain is boss, she added. And even if a flight attendant feels sexually harassed, she can back away or file a complaint with the union.
“This whole incident was a bit weird,” Tiwani said. “I see things from the flight attendant's perspective, but it's essential to remain professional.”
Several aviation experts said they couldn't remember a similar case of aircrew rage. The closest may have been in October 2008 when the heir to French fashion house Hermes, Mathias Guerrand-Hermes, allegedly grabbed at an Air France pilot's crotch in a drunken mid-air attack.
Air India, a former monopoly with an aging fleet and poor on-time record, has struggled in recent years to compete with lower-cost private airlines.
Saturday's fight came a few days after the government stepped in to halt a four-day pilot strike, nixing the carrier's bid to cut the wages of many of its 32,000 workers—twice the staff needed, by some accounts — in an attempt to pare its $3 billion in accumulated losses.
“This airline is a disgrace, they've ground it into the ground,” said Madhu Kishwar, head of a woman's advocacy group, who just canceled her ticket to New York. “I think this airline should die, and I'm doing my small part to make it happen.”
Others predicted that public outrage would soon fade as it has before, providing little incentive for real reform. “It's our culture, we take life casually,” said Mumtaz.
State-owned Air India, which some critics have dubbed a white elephant, has had several mishaps over the years. India badly needs an independent regulator and safety board, said safety expert Mohan Ranganathan, a former Air India pilot.
In the mid-1980s, a disgruntled two-member flight crew that weren't talking failed to deploy their aircraft's landing gear on arrival in Calcutta. No one was killed. Their licenses were revoked, Ranganathan said, but political connections and threats of a lawsuit saw them reinstated.
In June 2008, Air India flight IC 162 from Dubai overshot the Mumbai airport by 45 miles after its pilots fell asleep. The “nap in the sky” ended when air traffic controllers jolted them awake by causing a loud buzzer to go off in the cockpit.
Earlier this year, an Air India flight narrowly missed colliding with the president's helicopter at the Mumbai airport.
“They've been very lucky not to have a fatal incident since 2000” when a pilot approaching the Patna airport lost control and crashed, killing 55 onboard and five on the ground, Ranganathan said. “This gives them a false sense of security. I think they almost need another fatal crash to wake up.”
Los Angeles Times
NEW DELHI — The sight of airline cabin crews trying to mollify enraged passengers has become all too common. But a recent Air India flight added a twist when crew members mid-flight started punching each other in front of startled passengers.
Accounts of what happened differ now that everyone's back on the ground. Exactly who started the brawl and why got a bit lost in the clouds, though one flight attendant has accused a crew member of trying to molest her.
What no one disputes is that with New Delhi-bound Flight IC-844 cruising at 30,000 feet over Pakistan at around 4 a.m. Saturday, the cockpit and cabin crews broke into fisticuffs. The ruckus spilled from the cockpit into the galley area in full view of the 106 passengers, prompting the pilot to threaten an emergency landing in Karachi, the commercial capital of India's longtime adversary.
The flight managed to stay on course from the United Arab Emirates to the Indian city of Lucknow and then Delhi.
The pilot and chief purser will probably stay on terra firma for awhile following their suspension Tuesday by Air India pending an investigation into the fight and allegations of sexual harassment.
“What a scandal, man,” said A.J.S. Walia, a former Indian vice air marshal, now head of Sikorsky Aircraft's Indian operation. “What an immature act on everyone's part.”
With regulators, analysts and the media fretting over the safety implications, the national-flag carrier quickly sought to reassure the public that the cockpit was never unmanned. At least one media report suggested, however, that both pilots were well out of their seats during the melee.
Police are probing alleged “assault or use of criminal force against a woman with intent to outrage her modesty.”
A spat started at Sharjah airport in the United Arab Emirates during a pre-flight check, according to local media, official statements and information leaked from an ongoing investigation.
Based on flight attendant Komal's version—the 24-year old only provided her first name—her take-off announcement angered flight commander Ranbeer Arora, who called her into the cockpit and, along with copilot Aditya Chopra, sharply criticized her, making her feel “uncomfortable as a woman.”
Komal said she left the Airbus A320 cockpit and explained to flight purser Amit Khanna what happened. The two were then called back into the cockpit, Komal told reporters, at which point the pilots became aggressive and pushed her out, bruising her and leaving the purser and pilots to go at it.
Another flight attendant, Chhavi Jaggarwal, said in a statement that Arora hit Komal and that the two pilots used abusive language and appeared livid that Komal hadn't greeted them respectfully.
“She was totally shaken up and was crying and she had bruises on her hand as if she was manhandled,” Jaggarwal said. “Even business-class passengers were standing and observing everything.”
In his version, the flight commander said he queried Komal about her tardiness in completing various procedures. A few minutes later, purser Khanna banged aggressively on the cockpit door, entered and used “un-parliamentary language.” When co-pilot Chopra rose to evict Khanna, Arora said, the co-pilot was manhandled by Khanna, leaving Chopra's lips bloody.
Whatever the details, the pilots would have been badly distracted, experts said. Furthermore, the incident took place at around dawn when the body's circadian rhythms tend to be at a low point.
“The commander should never have compromised safety,” said Sajed Mumtaz, a former Air India trainer and flight supervisor. “You wait and handle these problems on the ground.”
The incident reflects a long-standing divide between cockpit and flight crews. “Since time immemorial, pilots have always been high-handed,” said Bhavna Tiwani, a longtime flight attendant, now a teacher at the Frankfinn Air Hostess Training Academy in New Delhi.
That said, the captain is boss, she added. And even if a flight attendant feels sexually harassed, she can back away or file a complaint with the union.
“This whole incident was a bit weird,” Tiwani said. “I see things from the flight attendant's perspective, but it's essential to remain professional.”
Several aviation experts said they couldn't remember a similar case of aircrew rage. The closest may have been in October 2008 when the heir to French fashion house Hermes, Mathias Guerrand-Hermes, allegedly grabbed at an Air France pilot's crotch in a drunken mid-air attack.
Air India, a former monopoly with an aging fleet and poor on-time record, has struggled in recent years to compete with lower-cost private airlines.
Saturday's fight came a few days after the government stepped in to halt a four-day pilot strike, nixing the carrier's bid to cut the wages of many of its 32,000 workers—twice the staff needed, by some accounts — in an attempt to pare its $3 billion in accumulated losses.
“This airline is a disgrace, they've ground it into the ground,” said Madhu Kishwar, head of a woman's advocacy group, who just canceled her ticket to New York. “I think this airline should die, and I'm doing my small part to make it happen.”
Others predicted that public outrage would soon fade as it has before, providing little incentive for real reform. “It's our culture, we take life casually,” said Mumtaz.
State-owned Air India, which some critics have dubbed a white elephant, has had several mishaps over the years. India badly needs an independent regulator and safety board, said safety expert Mohan Ranganathan, a former Air India pilot.
In the mid-1980s, a disgruntled two-member flight crew that weren't talking failed to deploy their aircraft's landing gear on arrival in Calcutta. No one was killed. Their licenses were revoked, Ranganathan said, but political connections and threats of a lawsuit saw them reinstated.
In June 2008, Air India flight IC 162 from Dubai overshot the Mumbai airport by 45 miles after its pilots fell asleep. The “nap in the sky” ended when air traffic controllers jolted them awake by causing a loud buzzer to go off in the cockpit.
Earlier this year, an Air India flight narrowly missed colliding with the president's helicopter at the Mumbai airport.
“They've been very lucky not to have a fatal incident since 2000” when a pilot approaching the Patna airport lost control and crashed, killing 55 onboard and five on the ground, Ranganathan said. “This gives them a false sense of security. I think they almost need another fatal crash to wake up.”
air rage
This would be unheard of a few years back, the flying worlds finally gone crazy
(well ok, its gone pretty crazy already but this takes the biscuit & the cookie jar as well !)
(well ok, its gone pretty crazy already but this takes the biscuit & the cookie jar as well !)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: not telling
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This incident almost equates to mutiny on behalf of the cabin crew,irrespective of what transpired on the flight deck before the incident. If the flight attendant felt aggrieved by the pilots actions, she and the purser should have reported the incident to the company and authorities after the flight. Barging into the flight deck and confronting the pilots caused endangerment of the aircraft.
It is about time that the relative authorities put an end to this sort of behaviour. If the authorities to do not act by reprimanding the cabin crew on this flight, than a very dangerous precedent would be set.
Remember guys, I am not saying that the pilots were blameless. All that I am saying is that the cabin crew actions were life threatening to the occupants of the aircraft.
It is about time that the relative authorities put an end to this sort of behaviour. If the authorities to do not act by reprimanding the cabin crew on this flight, than a very dangerous precedent would be set.
Remember guys, I am not saying that the pilots were blameless. All that I am saying is that the cabin crew actions were life threatening to the occupants of the aircraft.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: ...
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The incident reflects a long-standing divide between cockpit and flight crews. “Since time immemorial, pilots have always been high-handed,” said Bhavna Tiwani, a longtime flight attendant, now a teacher at the Frankfinn Air Hostess Training Academy in New Delhi.
this is a critical factor in AI / IC ... there is no CRM...pilots view cabin crew as cheap labor and have no respect for them.... cabin crew treat pilots as evil monsters with fat pay cheques.... this is "approved" top down...
..this incident waiting to happen for a long time..
this is a critical factor in AI / IC ... there is no CRM...pilots view cabin crew as cheap labor and have no respect for them.... cabin crew treat pilots as evil monsters with fat pay cheques.... this is "approved" top down...
..this incident waiting to happen for a long time..
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pilots view cabin crew as cheap labor and have no respect for them.... cabin crew treat pilots as evil monsters with fat pay cheques.... this is "approved" top down
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Zanzi's Bar
Age: 59
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Castes
The caste system was supposedly abolished in India about 50 years ago...
Still there are about 400 registered caste based murders (National Geographic editor's article sometime in 2007) every year. The number of unregistered ones is times higher.
This is your biggest democracy in the World!
No wonder this "crewrage" incident(to coin a new word) happened on an IA flight. Not on LH, AF, AA etc... or EK, where there are plenty of Indian CC/pilots. But it's not your biggest democracy.
The biz class pax should have been scared, not "bewildered" as reported!
Still there are about 400 registered caste based murders (National Geographic editor's article sometime in 2007) every year. The number of unregistered ones is times higher.
This is your biggest democracy in the World!
No wonder this "crewrage" incident(to coin a new word) happened on an IA flight. Not on LH, AF, AA etc... or EK, where there are plenty of Indian CC/pilots. But it's not your biggest democracy.
The biz class pax should have been scared, not "bewildered" as reported!
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Qatar
Age: 77
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air India Mid Air Scuffle
In view of an American Airlines ? pilot dumping their equivalent of a CSD for pushing a paper under a cockpit door what is to be done with both pilots and 2 cabin crew coming to blows during cruise and in full view of their pax?
At least the Auto Pilot did not join in the affray
IC 884 Sharjah Delhi refers
Rotomoulder
Doha
At least the Auto Pilot did not join in the affray
IC 884 Sharjah Delhi refers
Rotomoulder
Doha
Join Date: May 2009
Location: China (CGO)
Age: 75
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swish266
The caste system was supposedly abolished in India about 50 years ago...
Moreover, there are professions that fall outside the caste system and continue to erode it as their numbers multiply, e.g. IT trades.
Note too that there is a lead time between enactment of a new law and effective social change. If you think slavery was abolished in the USA 150 years ago, google around a bit about "sharecropping today" and aliens locked down into sex slavery to pay off the traffickers that promised them a bright new future -- it's the "indentured servants" of the 1700s all over again. "Indentured servant" translated as "white slave".
On democracy, India has over 900 political parties, although not all are recognized by the Electoral Commission. That 450 times better than just two.
If you want to factor in India's 1,000 million inhabitants against the 300 million of the USA, that's still 150 times more representative of public opinion.
Happy Skies!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Dunnunda
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am surprised all those pax who viewed the kung-fu first hand didn't make a huge noise and abandon ship when the aircraft landed the first time and put a stop to this mess, which allowed this recipe for disaster to get back in the air again ! Perhaps, new uninformed pax ?
Also am surprised no pax has filed a lawsuit against the airline yet ! for endangering their life, twice !! oops, did I just give someone the idea
Smoothie....
Also am surprised no pax has filed a lawsuit against the airline yet ! for endangering their life, twice !! oops, did I just give someone the idea
Smoothie....
Wouldn't be the first time.
Here's an event related by Captain Arthur Whitlock in his book: 'Behind the Cockpit Door' Pub. 1991 ISBN 0-86303-565-5
In this case, the Sikh radio operator is trying to separate two western captains who have had a little 'misunderstanding' in a Dak:
He was also something of a dab hand at illustrating comely ladies:
Arthur was a great raconteur, artist and captain with whom to fly; regrettably no longer with us.
Here's an event related by Captain Arthur Whitlock in his book: 'Behind the Cockpit Door' Pub. 1991 ISBN 0-86303-565-5
In this case, the Sikh radio operator is trying to separate two western captains who have had a little 'misunderstanding' in a Dak:
He was also something of a dab hand at illustrating comely ladies:
Arthur was a great raconteur, artist and captain with whom to fly; regrettably no longer with us.
Last edited by Basil; 11th Oct 2009 at 00:21.
If you were a passenger on this flight, what would you do?
1. Sit back and enjoy the show?
2. Try to ignore the melee?
3. Point out that the purser and fa are endangering the flight, suggest that they move towards the rear of the plane to carry out their duties?
Then sort it out on the ground?
4. Flat pack the cabin crew?
A diabolically handled situation.
1. Sit back and enjoy the show?
2. Try to ignore the melee?
3. Point out that the purser and fa are endangering the flight, suggest that they move towards the rear of the plane to carry out their duties?
Then sort it out on the ground?
4. Flat pack the cabin crew?
A diabolically handled situation.