Pilot fatigue
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Pilot fatigue
I guess this topic has been raised in this forum some time ago, but, as a pax, I would appreciate to receive some input on the following issue:
I would imagine that, after a long working day (or night), you will sometimes find it difficult to fully concentrate on difficult situations, landings, etc. How do you, as professional pilots, cope with the problem of fatigue after a long day´s (or night´s) flight? What is, if there is any, your company´s policy on this?
It has been argued that fatigue is only a problem at long-haul flights. However, I would imagine that after so and so many take-offs and landings during short-distance trips in crowded airspace in, say, Europe, this might be a problem not only for 747 etc. pilots, but for ATR, BAe, 737 etc. drivers, too. What techniques, if any, do you use to stay alert?
Or am I, as a non-pilot, simply over-estimating fatigue as a problem?
Thanks for any posts on this issue!
I would imagine that, after a long working day (or night), you will sometimes find it difficult to fully concentrate on difficult situations, landings, etc. How do you, as professional pilots, cope with the problem of fatigue after a long day´s (or night´s) flight? What is, if there is any, your company´s policy on this?
It has been argued that fatigue is only a problem at long-haul flights. However, I would imagine that after so and so many take-offs and landings during short-distance trips in crowded airspace in, say, Europe, this might be a problem not only for 747 etc. pilots, but for ATR, BAe, 737 etc. drivers, too. What techniques, if any, do you use to stay alert?
Or am I, as a non-pilot, simply over-estimating fatigue as a problem?
Thanks for any posts on this issue!
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NO SMALL PROBLEM -
The business interests of aviation now have precedence over safety - fact, not fiction.
Crew fatigue is a very real problem in all facets of the airline world. However, it has the status of UFOs - to be rendered fictional at any cost.
Bearing in mind that no government agency will have any part of an investigation, go to -
www.webpak.net/~skydream
- and look at the Flight CS-985 accounts.
Even with well documented fatal crashes, Jane Garvey will have no part of enforcing the crew rest regulations. The site mentioned above has a related letter to her, which has been unanswered.
Even Jane Garvey's No. 2 guy, Nick Lacey is quoted by the LA Times as citing Jane as going back on her promise to enforce the regulations. Essentially, he called her a liar; I won't argue.
The good news is, "...it's bad.;" the bad news is, "...it's getting worse."
The safety science of Crew Resource Management (CRM) is in the same category - safety last.
The law was changed to relieve the FAA of safety accountability, so guess where your family is on their next flight? Check your insurance policies.
Notice that the only emphasis the FAA asserts in the media is in cramming more aircraft through the same airspace - preferably on time.
Mineta has immediately distinguished himself by relieving the accountability of Air Traffic Controllers (to an unknown extent) and is now trying to get the thunderstorm takeoff restrictions relaxed. Safety? That stuff costs money; we can only afford so much.
Conversely, crews are taught techniques for maximizing their alertness in the course of the crew fatigue experience.
P.S. Your Congressmen don't care; they've all been tried.
[This message has been edited by SKYDRIFTER (edited 12 April 2001).]
The business interests of aviation now have precedence over safety - fact, not fiction.
Crew fatigue is a very real problem in all facets of the airline world. However, it has the status of UFOs - to be rendered fictional at any cost.
Bearing in mind that no government agency will have any part of an investigation, go to -
www.webpak.net/~skydream
- and look at the Flight CS-985 accounts.
Even with well documented fatal crashes, Jane Garvey will have no part of enforcing the crew rest regulations. The site mentioned above has a related letter to her, which has been unanswered.
Even Jane Garvey's No. 2 guy, Nick Lacey is quoted by the LA Times as citing Jane as going back on her promise to enforce the regulations. Essentially, he called her a liar; I won't argue.
The good news is, "...it's bad.;" the bad news is, "...it's getting worse."
The safety science of Crew Resource Management (CRM) is in the same category - safety last.
The law was changed to relieve the FAA of safety accountability, so guess where your family is on their next flight? Check your insurance policies.
Notice that the only emphasis the FAA asserts in the media is in cramming more aircraft through the same airspace - preferably on time.
Mineta has immediately distinguished himself by relieving the accountability of Air Traffic Controllers (to an unknown extent) and is now trying to get the thunderstorm takeoff restrictions relaxed. Safety? That stuff costs money; we can only afford so much.
Conversely, crews are taught techniques for maximizing their alertness in the course of the crew fatigue experience.
P.S. Your Congressmen don't care; they've all been tried.
[This message has been edited by SKYDRIFTER (edited 12 April 2001).]
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Whoop, whoop, warning, warning, heads-up, heads-up, press alert, press alert......
Right now I'm as knackered as the next guy, i.e. a planned annual rostering requirement of between 850 and 900 flying hours (spread across about 500 sectors), but as this is governed by CAP371 it's all entirely legal, ain't it ?!
Nb. The following was recently posted in our company forum - I'm sure (hope) that the contributor won't mind me reproducing their tome in this thread.........
Whilst I'm sure that fatigue affects many aircrew, to a greater or lesser extent much dependant upon the nature of their flying, my experience is from a 'low cost', 'shorthaul', 'scheduled service', carrier with very tight (i.e. typically less than 30 minute) turn arounds - and a roster pattern that tends to be either early's or late's.
So when you ask why the ticket cost is low, it might be fair to suggest that, in-part, the price of your ticket is a reflection of just how much 'value-for-money' is extracted from the employees.
Ps. I'd better keep this short and sweet as I've got to leave the house in 6 hours (yes, really ! ) for an early report. Nb. Last week I did just under forty hours of flying and 18 sectors, and I don't even bother to track my duty hours any more - i.e. too bloody tired to bother. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Right now I'm as knackered as the next guy, i.e. a planned annual rostering requirement of between 850 and 900 flying hours (spread across about 500 sectors), but as this is governed by CAP371 it's all entirely legal, ain't it ?!
Nb. The following was recently posted in our company forum - I'm sure (hope) that the contributor won't mind me reproducing their tome in this thread.........
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Way back in June of 1994 the CAA issued a 'Notice to AOC Holders' with the intent of clarifying some points of interest w.r.t. Flight/Duty-Time Limitations's, eg (and somewhat paraphrased) :
Section 3.2 Rostering (CAP 371 Section A Paragraph 2 and Section C Annex E)
The Authority is concerned that some operators are working some crews close to the limits of their approved FTL scheme, and at the same time not following good rostering practices. It is emphasised that such rostering, despite being within the legal limitations, can produce fatigue well before the limits in CAP 371 are reached.
</font>
Section 3.2 Rostering (CAP 371 Section A Paragraph 2 and Section C Annex E)
The Authority is concerned that some operators are working some crews close to the limits of their approved FTL scheme, and at the same time not following good rostering practices. It is emphasised that such rostering, despite being within the legal limitations, can produce fatigue well before the limits in CAP 371 are reached.
</font>
So when you ask why the ticket cost is low, it might be fair to suggest that, in-part, the price of your ticket is a reflection of just how much 'value-for-money' is extracted from the employees.
Ps. I'd better keep this short and sweet as I've got to leave the house in 6 hours (yes, really ! ) for an early report. Nb. Last week I did just under forty hours of flying and 18 sectors, and I don't even bother to track my duty hours any more - i.e. too bloody tired to bother. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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If I can deduce your approximate location from your name then you have probably been aboard with me up front.
We fly 4-6 sectors a day and have duty time regulations which ensure a certain amount of rest. Max 90 per day and max 270 in the previous 7 days and at least two 26 hour periods of full rest in 14 days, scheduled.
In reality I get around 230-40 points per week as a max.
Furthermore, we have a duty, not a right, a duty to not work if we are not properly rested. My neighbour kept me up all night once with a techno party and this would have lead to such a case if I had been on the schedule. It doesn't have much effect on the annual sick leave.
An early check-in is always a pain especially if you've only had the minimum 9 hours rest and not adjusted sleep patterns but the working day is not so long, often just six hours. Four hour-long flights with half hour turnarounds.
With this kind of routine any thing out of the ordinary is quickly picked up as we know what we expect to see.
We are also two pilots who constantly check and recheck the situation and each-other to avoid problems like familiarity breeding contempt.
The real answer to your question is much less boring.....
Really strong, sweet coffee!!!
Ask to visit the front office for a chat with us.
Willkommen an bord unseres....
[This message has been edited by Mr moto (edited 12 April 2001).]
We fly 4-6 sectors a day and have duty time regulations which ensure a certain amount of rest. Max 90 per day and max 270 in the previous 7 days and at least two 26 hour periods of full rest in 14 days, scheduled.
In reality I get around 230-40 points per week as a max.
Furthermore, we have a duty, not a right, a duty to not work if we are not properly rested. My neighbour kept me up all night once with a techno party and this would have lead to such a case if I had been on the schedule. It doesn't have much effect on the annual sick leave.
An early check-in is always a pain especially if you've only had the minimum 9 hours rest and not adjusted sleep patterns but the working day is not so long, often just six hours. Four hour-long flights with half hour turnarounds.
With this kind of routine any thing out of the ordinary is quickly picked up as we know what we expect to see.
We are also two pilots who constantly check and recheck the situation and each-other to avoid problems like familiarity breeding contempt.
The real answer to your question is much less boring.....
Really strong, sweet coffee!!!
Ask to visit the front office for a chat with us.
Willkommen an bord unseres....
[This message has been edited by Mr moto (edited 12 April 2001).]
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Longhaul routes you are pretty tired all the time you are flying. Especially going East from London as you generally fly night sectors both ways. Also operating West about from the far east!!
You just get used to it and try and rest during your crew rest if you get any.
You just get used to it and try and rest during your crew rest if you get any.
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If a pilot needs caffeine tablets, then the fatigue is such that the pilot shouldn't be flying. At Cranwell some of the cadets used these during the big exercises. It didn't improve their performance, they still appeared as groggy as the rest at 0330, and the effects when they came off them were undesireable.
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As I contemplate my 2,500 hour roster for last year I wonder what it would be like to be rostered for just 8 or 900. Heaven! Of course, pilots have lots of innocent lives in their hands. It is a safety hazard letting them get as tired as anyone ese at the end of a days work.
"Brring-brrring"
"Hi, David" (our friendly neighbourhood airworthiness surveyor has just phoned.)
"What do you mean I missed SB 767-54A0070?"
"It was due when?"
"Oh Sh*t!"
"You're issuing an immediate rule?"
"We're grounded? What the h*ll for? Its only the bl**dy Wing/Pylon attachments for Christ's sake! When did you ever hear of an engine falling off the wing?"
"Oh!.... Oh...Yes,... I forgot about that one... Yes and that one too."
"OK. OK. I'm just off to head office to resign then..."
Slams down phone...
"Damned airworthiness cr*p! Why don't they worry about important things and let us get on with the job...."
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 13 April 2001).]
"Brring-brrring"
"Hi, David" (our friendly neighbourhood airworthiness surveyor has just phoned.)
"What do you mean I missed SB 767-54A0070?"
"It was due when?"
"Oh Sh*t!"
"You're issuing an immediate rule?"
"We're grounded? What the h*ll for? Its only the bl**dy Wing/Pylon attachments for Christ's sake! When did you ever hear of an engine falling off the wing?"
"Oh!.... Oh...Yes,... I forgot about that one... Yes and that one too."
"OK. OK. I'm just off to head office to resign then..."
Slams down phone...
"Damned airworthiness cr*p! Why don't they worry about important things and let us get on with the job...."
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 13 April 2001).]
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Hey Blacksheep,
I'm not quite sure if you got it right.
When talking about 900 hours, this means Block Hours, so only the time the aircraft is actually moving. Add to this all preparation phases, proceedings, dead-head-travel, office work, updating the papers, preparing at home for the next simulator or flight, and so on and so on, and you will get the correct working time you are talking about.
I'm not quite sure if you got it right.
When talking about 900 hours, this means Block Hours, so only the time the aircraft is actually moving. Add to this all preparation phases, proceedings, dead-head-travel, office work, updating the papers, preparing at home for the next simulator or flight, and so on and so on, and you will get the correct working time you are talking about.
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I know that Rammstein 
Try a flight from the Far East to Germany - 18 hours long haul starting at the end of a normal working day and arriving early morning. Pickup is waiting at the airport for a 90 minute drive to the site. Start meeting immediately and run through the day to 20.00L Bed at 2200L (45 hours since the last time in a bed.) Up again at 05.00L to conference call base (time zone difference) Back to the site at 07.30L and work right through to 12.30L then driven straight back to the airport to fly long haul back to the Far East again, arriving mid afternoon. Back to office and make some airworthiness decisions. Be careful, get it wrong and someone might die.
The point is its not just pilots who have a fatigue problem that affects aviation safety. Everyone who works in the industry has to be on their toes whether they are flying, checking load sheets, enforcing dangerous goods regulations or making engineering decisions. Mistakes that cause accidents often begin with someone being too tired to maintain their usual standards - its an industry wide problem because of the strange shifts we all work.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Try a flight from the Far East to Germany - 18 hours long haul starting at the end of a normal working day and arriving early morning. Pickup is waiting at the airport for a 90 minute drive to the site. Start meeting immediately and run through the day to 20.00L Bed at 2200L (45 hours since the last time in a bed.) Up again at 05.00L to conference call base (time zone difference) Back to the site at 07.30L and work right through to 12.30L then driven straight back to the airport to fly long haul back to the Far East again, arriving mid afternoon. Back to office and make some airworthiness decisions. Be careful, get it wrong and someone might die.
The point is its not just pilots who have a fatigue problem that affects aviation safety. Everyone who works in the industry has to be on their toes whether they are flying, checking load sheets, enforcing dangerous goods regulations or making engineering decisions. Mistakes that cause accidents often begin with someone being too tired to maintain their usual standards - its an industry wide problem because of the strange shifts we all work.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
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This issue has two sides to it. Those that actually see this as a problem and those that use 'fatigue' and 'safety' as a front for what is nothing more than an attempt at imrpoving working condtions. Those people sadly let the side down. I agree with some of what you say but also remember that one paragraph of CAP371 also refers to a crews responsibilty in ensuring rest periods are taken in such a manner as to achieve sufficient rest before commencing a duty. Some (not all) crews dissapear to bed 6 or 7 hours before a flight, and then are seen crying fatigue the next day. If you are given 11 or twelve hours minimum, and you don't use that then why should the companies or authorities give you more?
Death threats on the back of a postcard please!
Death threats on the back of a postcard please!
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Blacksheep:
I don't recall anyone stating that fatigue only affects pilots. This being a pilot's forum, however, some thought this might be a good opportunity to discuss pilot fatigue.
We all have our responsibilities and our share of sob stories. You don't want to hear mine and I don't want to hear yours. But since I've already read it, let me say this: If your job was that bad on a regular basis, you'd have quit long ago and become a baker's assistant. So let's keep the chest beating to a minimum, all right?
When it comes to finding time to rest, I agree that it is the responsibility of the pilot to be rested in preparation for a flight. I also agree that it's easier said than done. For example, a freight pilot flying primarily overnights will begin to feel overwhelmingly tired at 3:00 AM no matter how much rest he or she got the day before.
Unless one has managed to convert their homelife to a pure nighttime schedule, it takes about a week to adjust. Even then, pilots begin to nod off when the segment is longer than 2 hours or so.
Solutions are unclear, regulation can only do so much, and until then we have to take responsibility for keeping ourselves alert and getting the necessary rest. So do what we do and turn up the lights at cruise and periodically slap each other at intervals not to exceed 10 minutes. An alternate method of compliance is replace the slap with the scream, "OH SH!T!"
Fly safe and stay awake,
BD
I don't recall anyone stating that fatigue only affects pilots. This being a pilot's forum, however, some thought this might be a good opportunity to discuss pilot fatigue.
We all have our responsibilities and our share of sob stories. You don't want to hear mine and I don't want to hear yours. But since I've already read it, let me say this: If your job was that bad on a regular basis, you'd have quit long ago and become a baker's assistant. So let's keep the chest beating to a minimum, all right?
When it comes to finding time to rest, I agree that it is the responsibility of the pilot to be rested in preparation for a flight. I also agree that it's easier said than done. For example, a freight pilot flying primarily overnights will begin to feel overwhelmingly tired at 3:00 AM no matter how much rest he or she got the day before.
Unless one has managed to convert their homelife to a pure nighttime schedule, it takes about a week to adjust. Even then, pilots begin to nod off when the segment is longer than 2 hours or so.
Solutions are unclear, regulation can only do so much, and until then we have to take responsibility for keeping ourselves alert and getting the necessary rest. So do what we do and turn up the lights at cruise and periodically slap each other at intervals not to exceed 10 minutes. An alternate method of compliance is replace the slap with the scream, "OH SH!T!"
Fly safe and stay awake,
BD
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Sorry if you thought I was chest-beating haamster, I hoped to point out that there is more to the fatigue question than just duty hours. The whole industry suffers from fatigue induced by working strange hours and shift patterns. The real issue about pilot fatigue isn't in the amount of hours pilots (or anyone else) work. Its when you work them that counts. Jet-lag isn't confined to pilots, its a phenomena experienced by all shift workers and most international business travellers. The answer isn't simply longer rest periods, what's needed is a fundamental rethink about how services are scheduled. Aviation is a 24 hour a day business and it seems obvious that this should be so. But is it? Is there no other way?
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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HAAMSTER -
One of the major aspects with crew fatigue is that the retirement factor leaves many compelled to hang on, risking as they dare.
Given scenarios such as AA-1420 with the base chief pilot going for broke (why?) and the CS-985 accounts, it's not a simple matter of arbitrarily changing careers.
Management has their ways. The Continental pilots are faced with the issue of being thrown into an alcohol treatment center for fighting back (check the CS-985 account - the captain was a tea-totaler). There is no indicator as to the probable response. Not even the Continental union would intervene in the CS-985 matter - owned and operated by management. Attorneys resorted to felonies to bury that story.
No easy answers on this topic. The FAA, in particular won't touch the subject, except to bury it.
One of the major aspects with crew fatigue is that the retirement factor leaves many compelled to hang on, risking as they dare.
Given scenarios such as AA-1420 with the base chief pilot going for broke (why?) and the CS-985 accounts, it's not a simple matter of arbitrarily changing careers.
Management has their ways. The Continental pilots are faced with the issue of being thrown into an alcohol treatment center for fighting back (check the CS-985 account - the captain was a tea-totaler). There is no indicator as to the probable response. Not even the Continental union would intervene in the CS-985 matter - owned and operated by management. Attorneys resorted to felonies to bury that story.
No easy answers on this topic. The FAA, in particular won't touch the subject, except to bury it.