AF Asks DL to Assess Safety Issues
well one fare paying pax hase read it
but it doesn't read like a normal audit report which are usually in pc management speak eg
'None of the aforementioned statements are intended to be disrespectful or antagonistic to the management. They are real facts and perception expressed by the crew in the hope of opening up communications.'
'None of the aforementioned statements are intended to be disrespectful or antagonistic to the management. They are real facts and perception expressed by the crew in the hope of opening up communications.'
Originally Posted by sleeper
Fact remains, they did land halfway with not enough remaining runway available. A simple go-around would have saved the day.
Sleeper
Almost every accident that has ever occurred could have been avoided by one simple action. In the case of AF358 there were at least 5 actions that, if taken by others (ie not the flight crew), would have also prevented the accident. As XV says, we need to look at every weak link (cheese hole).
If you are interested -- in this particular accident or in aviaiton safety in general -- read the report, then feel free to PM me if you want to discuss it.
grizz
Almost every accident that has ever occurred could have been avoided by one simple action. In the case of AF358 there were at least 5 actions that, if taken by others (ie not the flight crew), would have also prevented the accident. As XV says, we need to look at every weak link (cheese hole).
If you are interested -- in this particular accident or in aviaiton safety in general -- read the report, then feel free to PM me if you want to discuss it.
grizz
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: netherlands
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes offcourse there is always , the swiss cheese. And yes there always are mitigating circumstances. However to say that other, not flightcrew, actions would have prevented the accident is blinding oneself to your own responsibility. You , and me, as flightcrew are responsible for the safe excecution of the flight. If this crew had no other options left then you are right. Whatever the reason for ending up high and fast, you can always make a go around. It is not the responsibility of say ATC to make you do one.
Pilots' Pal
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: USA
Age: 63
Posts: 1,158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not knowing the politics of AF or KLM (and respective governments), perhaps one could say this reflects a healthy culture within AF; realising there may be issues and an independent review would be helpful.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where its at
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That Korean audit that was linked earlier makes for very interesting reading.
Some points I feel are highly pertinent and could do with being looked at today whereas others seem woefully old-fashioned and dogmatic.
Some points I feel are highly pertinent and could do with being looked at today whereas others seem woefully old-fashioned and dogmatic.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi brothers and sisters,
AF358 was THE beginning of the end for Air France safety image.
Hard to resume it in a few words, but knowing absolutely everything from the first minutes this crash happened till the publication of the ashamed TSB/BEA report, I will say that among all the numerous swiss cheese holes which did exist at that time, one was by far the biggest one: lack of airmanship and, above all, lack of hand flying skills of the (ex Air Inter) flight deck crew.
Not blaming them at all for that, but really angry against the same political serial killers who, since Toronto crash, are still in command of Air France, BEA, DGAC, etc...
AF358 was THE beginning of the end for Air France safety image.
Hard to resume it in a few words, but knowing absolutely everything from the first minutes this crash happened till the publication of the ashamed TSB/BEA report, I will say that among all the numerous swiss cheese holes which did exist at that time, one was by far the biggest one: lack of airmanship and, above all, lack of hand flying skills of the (ex Air Inter) flight deck crew.
Not blaming them at all for that, but really angry against the same political serial killers who, since Toronto crash, are still in command of Air France, BEA, DGAC, etc...
Last edited by mermoz92; 20th Sep 2009 at 23:18.
Fact remains, they did land halfway with not enough remaining runway available. A simple go-around would have saved the day.
That was the CB AF358 would have flown into had the crew chosen to go around -- and would probably have impacted on Hwy 401 between Dixie and 410.
There is no guarantee that a windshear escape maneuvre will succeed every time.
Now had they decided to divert at the OM, they could have avoided the beast.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Since DL and AF have a partnership, will any findings by DL likely be suspect? Audit independence is the cornerstone of compliance testing and, apparently, DL does not meet this test; right?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DL and AF have business relationships and joint ventures. And they are two of the founding members of the Skyteam alliance. But DL had relationships with KE as well, and KE is a member of Skyteam as well. Indeed, DL withdrew all of the codesharing with KE until the safety issues got resolved.
So if the KE report and scrutiny were any indication, I would expect a similar degree of thoroughness. Also, I have no first hand knowledge, but I would not expect the issues (if any) at AF to be anything close to the issues that existed in the 90s at Korean Air.
So if the KE report and scrutiny were any indication, I would expect a similar degree of thoroughness. Also, I have no first hand knowledge, but I would not expect the issues (if any) at AF to be anything close to the issues that existed in the 90s at Korean Air.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fact remains, they did land halfway with not enough remaining runway available. A simple go-around would have saved the day.
Not blaming them at all for that, but really angry against the same political serial killers who, since Toronto crash, are still in command of Air France, BEA, DGAC, etc...
Last edited by Squawk7777; 21st Sep 2009 at 21:24.
I found it very unusual that the 'Delta' consultants for Koreans safety audit seemed to have such extensive knowledge of B747 operations since they had not operated any at the time for decades !
And of course, at that time had never operated the 744.
And of course, at that time had never operated the 744.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: EU
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
above all, lack of hand flying skills of the (ex Air Inter) flight deck crew.
This could not have happened to a pure AF product...
Delta guys have to work on this: Has the proudiness to be in an AF cockpit to contribute to poor safety figures?
Nothing can happen because we are AF pilots working for the best airline with the best maintenance and ground staff.
Isn't the good sense and proper judgement altered by such a brain wash?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't the good sense and proper judgement altered by such a brain wash?
Bottom line is if you (or your company) think that there's no more need for improvement, then you have started to regress.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ australiancalou:
Let me say that "ex Air Inter" pilots does not mean for me it could not have happened to pure AF pilots. They only have a much higher percentage of incidents/accidents quite explainable by cultural differences. They were short-haul pilots becoming all at once long-haul pilots in a merge opening doors for serious safety problems, as everywhere.
This has never been adressed by an AF management whose biggest head was Mr Spinetta former Air Inter President coming with his own staff of directors.
Brain washing is the very true word to say when examining how things work in this company. It has always been since it was created. In the old days one had to "passer au moule" in the sense of moulding or casting. Since the 10+ last years, this process has become perversed by a constant weekly or daily internal communication to all employees.
Among them all pilots, or supposed to be, would I say.
Because pilots costs are here in the center of the debate: selection, formation and trainig........
Let me say that "ex Air Inter" pilots does not mean for me it could not have happened to pure AF pilots. They only have a much higher percentage of incidents/accidents quite explainable by cultural differences. They were short-haul pilots becoming all at once long-haul pilots in a merge opening doors for serious safety problems, as everywhere.
This has never been adressed by an AF management whose biggest head was Mr Spinetta former Air Inter President coming with his own staff of directors.
Brain washing is the very true word to say when examining how things work in this company. It has always been since it was created. In the old days one had to "passer au moule" in the sense of moulding or casting. Since the 10+ last years, this process has become perversed by a constant weekly or daily internal communication to all employees.
Among them all pilots, or supposed to be, would I say.
Because pilots costs are here in the center of the debate: selection, formation and trainig........
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southwest
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Autraliancalou, you are absolutely right.
Just like President Chirac said, the house is burning and we are looking elsewere.
I never read any attempt by the AF unions or AF pilots to recognize any responsabilities in the awful crash rate we have.
It’s easier to accuse Air Inter pilots who had during 35 years a far much better safety standard than AF.
We receive a lot of training, we have new aircraft, good maintenance and we crash an aircraft every four years.
Sure, the management is faulty, but we also have to admit that we are strongly involved in this mess.
And by the way, when I was FO, I flew with “pure AF pilots” that disregarded my missed approach suggestion or were in the bunk while we were avoiding CBs.
Just like President Chirac said, the house is burning and we are looking elsewere.
I never read any attempt by the AF unions or AF pilots to recognize any responsabilities in the awful crash rate we have.
It’s easier to accuse Air Inter pilots who had during 35 years a far much better safety standard than AF.
We receive a lot of training, we have new aircraft, good maintenance and we crash an aircraft every four years.
Sure, the management is faulty, but we also have to admit that we are strongly involved in this mess.
And by the way, when I was FO, I flew with “pure AF pilots” that disregarded my missed approach suggestion or were in the bunk while we were avoiding CBs.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I found it very unusual that the 'Delta' consultants for Koreans safety audit seemed to have such extensive knowledge of B747 operations since they had not operated any at the time for decades !
This document was for a while published on Alex Patterson's website, he mainly has views on the AFAP debacle of 1989 posted there.
Somehow the 'audit report' achieved urban legend status and was touted in some quarters as the actual summary of Delta's findings.
Delta did operate a couple of 747's in the 1970's as I recall. Were they leased from Pan Am, perhaps?
Nexialist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having read many a contract, and numerous business letters the first line of the "report" says it all.
What it does NOT say is
These findings are a detailed description of observations made during the Delta Audit program over a number of flights
These are the findings of the Delta audit program