Pilot handling skills under threat, says Airbus
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North of Antartica
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my Day!!!
In my day everyone was thrown into the sim or company hack turboprop as part of the recruitment process, raw flying, no autopilot/auto throttle. Huge pressure (your job depends on the next 5 minutes mate!!)
This certainly weeded out the good the bad and the ugly!!
Things will only get worse as the generation Y is recruited. Key thing for recruiters is to find guys and gals who want to learn and improve from day 1 right through to retirement.
This certainly weeded out the good the bad and the ugly!!
Things will only get worse as the generation Y is recruited. Key thing for recruiters is to find guys and gals who want to learn and improve from day 1 right through to retirement.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Above 30,000 ft
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heli-phile:
Have to agree with you there. Unfortunately there are those championing nonsense like MPL shortcut.... reducing actual flying in airplanes and trying to use simulators to fast-track "Gen Ys" into the right seat.
Lizad was spot on when he said "Sims are great training aids, but in the end, they can't simulate the fine essence of handling the actual jet they simulate when it comes to the true beauty and art of flying. For a crude comparison, although my sauve, debonair self wouldn't know precisely, but I'd guess they rank somewhere like that of using an inflatable doll to simulate time with a lady versus using the real thing. Great for procedures, but somewhat lacking in enjoying the true experience."
As with all things aviation, nothing gets changed except in blood. Only when the first loss of lives happen and are attributed to poor flying skills or lack of proper training in how to fly an airplane during licencing, will anything happen. Almost all aviation regulations are written in blood.
Things will only get worse as the generation Y is recruited. Key thing for recruiters is to find guys and gals who want to learn and improve from day 1 right through to retirement
Lizad was spot on when he said "Sims are great training aids, but in the end, they can't simulate the fine essence of handling the actual jet they simulate when it comes to the true beauty and art of flying. For a crude comparison, although my sauve, debonair self wouldn't know precisely, but I'd guess they rank somewhere like that of using an inflatable doll to simulate time with a lady versus using the real thing. Great for procedures, but somewhat lacking in enjoying the true experience."
As with all things aviation, nothing gets changed except in blood. Only when the first loss of lives happen and are attributed to poor flying skills or lack of proper training in how to fly an airplane during licencing, will anything happen. Almost all aviation regulations are written in blood.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: west
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recently a couple of us have been purposely taking a select few outside of the little square, with varying degrees of success. Some have actually handled situations very well(no F/D no A/T), but not consistently
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yellow Brick Road
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The company I worked for until very recently enforces quite the opposite rule - they insist on the use of the highest level of automation available at all times.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basic flying skills are the back bone of a safe operation of any aircraft. Losing an autopilot should never cause any degradation of safety in flight. It increases the workload but the flight is still safe. People who think losing automation in flight causing an emergency are from a new school of pilots. Airlines that do not allow hand flying are setting themselves up for a disaster.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So basically the blokes who invented aircraft that can´t be hand flown ( it´s still in CWS with the A/P out ! ) want people to hand fly aircraft 
IF it´s not Boeing I´m not Going !!
IF it´s not Boeing I´m not Going !!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The airbus FBW is not like the boeing CWS autopilot mode, nor it uses a pitch demand control law.
Hand flying a 737 is more demanding than flying a 320, but you still require the same basic abilities, knowledge and technique.
No matter how much software an airplane has, its performance depends on its attitude and its thrust. From that poing of view, airbus is the same as any airplane. It is the autotrim function which makes it very different than a boeing and making it easier to fly it. But you still have to set a pitch and a thrust to get the desired performance. That is the basic skill that needs to practiced regularly.
Hand flying a 737 is more demanding than flying a 320, but you still require the same basic abilities, knowledge and technique.
No matter how much software an airplane has, its performance depends on its attitude and its thrust. From that poing of view, airbus is the same as any airplane. It is the autotrim function which makes it very different than a boeing and making it easier to fly it. But you still have to set a pitch and a thrust to get the desired performance. That is the basic skill that needs to practiced regularly.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: south england
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been fortunate enough to fly both the A320 and the B757. I have to say that my time on the A320 most definitely buggered my scan. I used to fly the bus with the automatics and f/d's out regularly, but the wonderful big pfd's meant that my scan was becoming non existent. The one area I truly realised I was getting lazy was pitch and power. Now that I'm on the B757 I realise that pitch and power are king. I regularly fly f/d off take offs and landings, which are perfectly safe as I maintain the skill regularly (not just for sim's etc).
When I go back onto the bus (inevitable at some point), I still intend to fly with the automatics out and f/d's off, but now I would also fly without the bird, which would help maintain that sense of pitch and power.
When I go back onto the bus (inevitable at some point), I still intend to fly with the automatics out and f/d's off, but now I would also fly without the bird, which would help maintain that sense of pitch and power.
Originally Posted by Gatbusdriver
Now that I'm on the B757 I realise that pitch and power are king.
As for topic of the thread; if there's indeed problem with LR pilots losing their manual flight skills, only cost-effective solution is to get them to fly more simulator hours. For practice, not for checking. Mind you: cost-effective doesn't imply it's cheap.
However, as I don't see many LR-pilots-lacking-manual-flying-skills events listed on ASN, I have my suspicions about this diatribe being sales pitch on behalf of simulator producers.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: W of 30W
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ZFT
It really is a pity this is turning into an A vs B willy waving contest. If some people are naive enough to believe that a B777 can be manually and normally flown without (AIMS) computers or the B787 can be manually flown without computers – dream on.
Its more than that, you can cross control the Boeing, (if you want to) you have to actually hold the yoke in a bank to do it. The guy sitting next to you knows exactly what you are doing as well because of the control in front of him is in the same position. The throttles move, its all about the feedback. The Boeing FBW "flies" just like all the other aircraft you have ever flown, obvious exceptions apply.
This has nothing to do with which company builds a better aircraft, it has everything to do with design philosophy.
This has nothing to do with which company builds a better aircraft, it has everything to do with design philosophy.
It gives an idea how the head of Airbus FBW engineering design was valuing the pilot profession …
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sonoma, CA, USA
Age: 79
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No Sh*t
They should never have done away with tail wheels, that's where the skill level began to deteriorate. Most pilots today are dependent on tricycle gear and wouldn't be able to keep a tail dragger on the runway, let alone the centre line.
At Transwest (all DC-3s) we had a few furloughed pilots from the majors apply for jobs who were pretty good in the air, however, they never did not understand the dynamics of the main gear being in front of the CG and that the use of feet was required.
Hope you don't mind a comment or two from an outsider.
I'm sure this is not a recent revelation, but the "de-skilling" of crew seems to have been on the drawing boards for a good while now. When my father used to work for BOAC and then British Caledonian, a high percentage of crew were ex-military, and certainly knew what hand-flying was. Over time the military obviously contracted, to the lean machine we have today. So fewer pilots from there. But there was still the airlines themselves, that had good training programs, and brought in youngsters and trained them the conventional way - PPL, etc.
But somewhere along the way the beancounters got in on the act, and started a re-think.
I won't draw this out - now we have the MPL. I presume you are all familiar with this? Personally it seems like a recipe for disaster. If this program is not designed to produce "systems operators" and NOT pilots I don't know what is.
It scares me. Are those folks training to hand-fly? Somehow I think they are training to 'pass' the MPL, and that alone.
- GY
I'm sure this is not a recent revelation, but the "de-skilling" of crew seems to have been on the drawing boards for a good while now. When my father used to work for BOAC and then British Caledonian, a high percentage of crew were ex-military, and certainly knew what hand-flying was. Over time the military obviously contracted, to the lean machine we have today. So fewer pilots from there. But there was still the airlines themselves, that had good training programs, and brought in youngsters and trained them the conventional way - PPL, etc.
But somewhere along the way the beancounters got in on the act, and started a re-think.
I won't draw this out - now we have the MPL. I presume you are all familiar with this? Personally it seems like a recipe for disaster. If this program is not designed to produce "systems operators" and NOT pilots I don't know what is.
It scares me. Are those folks training to hand-fly? Somehow I think they are training to 'pass' the MPL, and that alone.
- GY
Last edited by GarageYears; 14th Sep 2009 at 03:45. Reason: Further thought
Psychophysiological entity
A few reminiscences on JB a few moments ago.
( a DC3. )
I think he probably went a bit far in the other direction with my impromptu training, but practice like that was utterly priceless.
( a DC3. )
Leave at 03:00 for Hamburg or some-such, and the skipper STOPS an engine on me. n tonnes of soggy aluminum and newspapers. Character building stuff.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: An old flying boat station on Moreton Bay
Age: 84
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FWIW I think there is confusion in some minds. As I read the thread, the issue is not what prior experience a pilot brings to the modern long-range jet.
The issue is that a doubled-up crew flying two 15 hour sectors gives you 1 captain flying a departure; 1 captain flying an arrival: 1 F/O flying a departure; and 1 F/O flying an arrival. And all flying 30 hours.
Do that 30 times and everyone has 900 hours and 15 Departures and 15 arrivals each. Not much opportunity for manual flying, when you need to maintain autoland currency for example. That is what atrophies manual flying skills.
Chase888 in post #36 mentioned the QF HS125. Perhaps the larger airlines which fly the 777/747/A330/A380 ultra longhaul sectors, could afford to provide a programme of manual flying of small jets for their long-haul pilots, and some jet flying exposure for the chaps who "don't need flying skills". But they won't do it voluntarily, and such a proposal wouldn't be viable at all for small carriers.
I don't have an answer, but the question seems valid enough.
The issue is that a doubled-up crew flying two 15 hour sectors gives you 1 captain flying a departure; 1 captain flying an arrival: 1 F/O flying a departure; and 1 F/O flying an arrival. And all flying 30 hours.
Do that 30 times and everyone has 900 hours and 15 Departures and 15 arrivals each. Not much opportunity for manual flying, when you need to maintain autoland currency for example. That is what atrophies manual flying skills.
Chase888 in post #36 mentioned the QF HS125. Perhaps the larger airlines which fly the 777/747/A330/A380 ultra longhaul sectors, could afford to provide a programme of manual flying of small jets for their long-haul pilots, and some jet flying exposure for the chaps who "don't need flying skills". But they won't do it voluntarily, and such a proposal wouldn't be viable at all for small carriers.
I don't have an answer, but the question seems valid enough.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: THE PEANUT BAR
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My opinion.......... you dont fly the Bus you react to it.......... get yourself in a nice little prop jobby once a month and bash the circuit, good value with a climb, cruise and descent phase plus fly by cable and manual noise..........
I ask what will happen in say ten years time when the bus Cpt came through the Multi Crew Pilot route and he is with an FO from the same route and it all goes dark........... or would that be bright/light as dark is good on the Bus!!
I ask what will happen in say ten years time when the bus Cpt came through the Multi Crew Pilot route and he is with an FO from the same route and it all goes dark........... or would that be bright/light as dark is good on the Bus!!
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: earth
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
military background!
I think if a pilot has a solid military background will not have any trouble for the remaining of his flying career, with or without the all automations!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the edge of madness
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chase888 in post #36 mentioned the QF HS125. Perhaps the larger airlines which fly the 777/747/A330/A380 ultra longhaul sectors, could afford to provide a programme of manual flying of small jets for their long-haul pilots, and some jet flying exposure for the chaps who "don't need flying skills". But they won't do it voluntarily, and such a proposal wouldn't be viable at all for small carriers.
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: netherlands
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes a military background is a fine basis. However flying takes practise and 20 years after the said militairy career and flying long haul for the last ten, makes you mighty rusty.