Near collision at EDDF/Frankfurt
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Near collision at EDDF/Frankfurt
The German air traffic control organisation (DFS) just confirmed on bild.de (german only link) that on the 18th of July at 2am Local time, a Cessna 425 operating an ambulance flight from FRA was cleared to taxi from the southern GA ramp and takeoff from 25R.
In order to do this, the plane had to cross 25L and then cross taxiway Charlie which runs parallel between 07R/25L and 07L/25R. Upon reaching taxiway Charlie, the Cessna began its takeoff roll while a LH 733 was doing a engine run on the same taxiway. Aticle says the C425 cleared the 733 by 20m(65ft.)
Only one of the four ATCOS was at their designated place during the event. (all four suspended)
Link for tze germanz.
Rhein-Main nachts um 2: Nur ein paar Meter fehlten zur Katastrophe - Frankfurt - Frankfurt - Bild.de
Zoni
In order to do this, the plane had to cross 25L and then cross taxiway Charlie which runs parallel between 07R/25L and 07L/25R. Upon reaching taxiway Charlie, the Cessna began its takeoff roll while a LH 733 was doing a engine run on the same taxiway. Aticle says the C425 cleared the 733 by 20m(65ft.)
Only one of the four ATCOS was at their designated place during the event. (all four suspended)
Link for tze germanz.
Rhein-Main nachts um 2: Nur ein paar Meter fehlten zur Katastrophe - Frankfurt - Frankfurt - Bild.de
Zoni
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Here 'n there
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is this right, he was given clearance to both taxy AND take-off?? Surely T/O clearance should only to be given when entering / lining up, especially at fields where there is other ground activity?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Surely T/O clearance should only to be given when entering / lining up, especially at fields where there is other ground activity?>>
Err, why?? I've cleared aircraft for take off at Heathrow on a number of occasions when they have been some distance from the runway - even just leaving their parking gate.
This matter is being discussed in several other threads too..
Err, why?? I've cleared aircraft for take off at Heathrow on a number of occasions when they have been some distance from the runway - even just leaving their parking gate.
This matter is being discussed in several other threads too..
Cessna confused taxiway C for runway 25R. Nothing wrong clearing an a/c for t-off whilst still taxying, however, it is ATC's responsability to monitor the situation. Unfortunately it's only too easy to get complacent when things are quiet. I remember an airmiss my unit had back in the early eighties. It involved the only two aircraft in the sector in the middle of the night!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They did that Cessna / B737 illustration at bild.de just so that the majority of their subscribers can properly understand the issue, just FYI. 
edit: In case you read German:
"Dann passiert das Wahnsinnige: Der Pilot der Cessna startet auf dem Rollweg durch, beschleunigt die Maschine auf etwa 200 km/h, lässt das Flugzeug steigen – und überfliegt die Boeing in geschätzten 20 Metern Höhe!"
...is written like a 13 year old would. At best
edit: In case you read German:
"Dann passiert das Wahnsinnige: Der Pilot der Cessna startet auf dem Rollweg durch, beschleunigt die Maschine auf etwa 200 km/h, lässt das Flugzeug steigen – und überfliegt die Boeing in geschätzten 20 Metern Höhe!"
...is written like a 13 year old would. At best
Whilst I defer to the opinions of experienced civil ATCOs, I cannot help but feel that it is safer to leave Take Off Clearance until the aircraft is approaching the holding point. I do appreciate that it can be impossible to withold T/O clearance until there is no chance of the pilot then turning on to, e.g., a parallel taxiway.
Is it clear that the air ambulance was given T/O clearance at the same time as taxi clearance?
Bas - RAF pilot & ATCO (nothing like as difficult as LATCC)
Is it clear that the air ambulance was given T/O clearance at the same time as taxi clearance?
Bas - RAF pilot & ATCO (nothing like as difficult as LATCC)
Perhaps at night when it's quiet and it wouldn't congest the frequency, a "call rolling" might be handy to give the ATCO a chance to look up and see that all is as should be. By the way, there's no need to have all four ATCOs on duty at that time of the night. They need to be rested for the morning rush which begins only a few hours later. This incident has NOTHING to do with the number of ATCOs in the tower at the time.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Already covered twice on pprune
Check this one please:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/383...fice-work.html
and that one as well:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/383...-incident.html
Check this one please:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/383...fice-work.html
and that one as well:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/383...-incident.html
Last edited by Kerosene Kraut; 6th Aug 2009 at 13:00.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Whilst I defer to the opinions of experienced civil ATCOs, I cannot help but feel that it is safer to leave Take Off Clearance until the aircraft is approaching the holding point.........
Bas - RAF pilot & ATCO (nothing like as difficult as LATCC)>>
Bas.. I don't know what experience you have, but in civil aviation operations we like to have things in black and white so show me the refernce that says you shouldn't do it. Probably not so much nowadays, but at Heathrow (and other aerodromes where I have worked) there would be occasional slack times with nothing at the holding point.. So, next aircraft taxying out would be cleared to line up and take off with maybe 500 yards to go to the runway. Everything remotely close to the traffic would be under positive ATC control so there is just no reason to "feel" that it's not safe.
With respect, that's why we get daft headlines - some journo plonker reads on here that an RAF pilot "felt it was unsafe" and splashes it on the Daily Garbage when there may have been no justification for such comment.
Bas - RAF pilot & ATCO (nothing like as difficult as LATCC)>>
Bas.. I don't know what experience you have, but in civil aviation operations we like to have things in black and white so show me the refernce that says you shouldn't do it. Probably not so much nowadays, but at Heathrow (and other aerodromes where I have worked) there would be occasional slack times with nothing at the holding point.. So, next aircraft taxying out would be cleared to line up and take off with maybe 500 yards to go to the runway. Everything remotely close to the traffic would be under positive ATC control so there is just no reason to "feel" that it's not safe.
With respect, that's why we get daft headlines - some journo plonker reads on here that an RAF pilot "felt it was unsafe" and splashes it on the Daily Garbage when there may have been no justification for such comment.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It involved the only two aircraft in the sector in the middle of the night!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manchester
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Give me a TO clearance whilst taxing out and I'll be grateful.
Less brakewear, less stop start, less CO2!
I'll double check when lined up, with either 'confirm take off for.....' or a simple '.... rolling'.
Let's be honest here it's human nature to 'wander' but changing the system will only fix one problem to create another one. The 'unrestricted' SID fiasco springs to mind!
Less brakewear, less stop start, less CO2!
I'll double check when lined up, with either 'confirm take off for.....' or a simple '.... rolling'.
Let's be honest here it's human nature to 'wander' but changing the system will only fix one problem to create another one. The 'unrestricted' SID fiasco springs to mind!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gone sailing
Age: 58
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFS (Deutsche Flugsicherung) press release, as per today available in German only:
Langen, 4. August 2009
Vorfall am Flughafen Frankfurt
In der Nacht vom 17. auf den 18. Juli 2009 war es auf dem Frankfurter Rhein-Main-Flughafen zu einer gefährlichen Annäherung zwischen zwei Flugzeugen gekommen. Gegen 2.00 Uhr morgens war ein Flugzeug vom Typ Cessna 425, eine zweimotorige Turboprop-Maschine, entgegen der Anweisung des Towerlotsen von einem Rollweg gestartet, der parallel zwischen den beiden Start- und Landebahnen verläuft. Ein Flugzeug vom Typ Boeing 737, das zu einem Triebwerkprobelauf auf dem Rollweg stand und mit Technikern besetzt war, wurde bei dem Vorfall in geringer Höhe überflogen. Die Towerbesatzung hatte den Vorfall nicht bemerkt und war erst durch den Piloten der startenden Maschine informiert worden.
Die DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung GmbH meldete den Vorfall umgehend der Aufsichtsbehörde und der Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung (BFU), die ihre Untersuchung sofort aufnahm. Bei der DFS-internen Untersuchung wurden Unregelmäßigkeiten bei der Besetzung der Tower-Arbeitsplätze festgestellt. Die Untersuchung wurde Ende letzter Woche abgeschlossen und ergab, dass von den vier Mitarbeitern - drei Fluglotsen und eine Flugdatenbearbeiterin –zeitweise nicht alle Arbeitsplätze wie vorgeschrieben besetzt waren. Die DFS sieht im Verhalten der Mitarbeiter einen eklatanten Verstoß gegen die Vorschriften und hat die vier Mitarbeiter mit sofortiger Wirkung von der Tätigkeit im Tower suspendiert.
See the chart here. Taxiway in question is CHARLIE
Langen, 4. August 2009
Vorfall am Flughafen Frankfurt
In der Nacht vom 17. auf den 18. Juli 2009 war es auf dem Frankfurter Rhein-Main-Flughafen zu einer gefährlichen Annäherung zwischen zwei Flugzeugen gekommen. Gegen 2.00 Uhr morgens war ein Flugzeug vom Typ Cessna 425, eine zweimotorige Turboprop-Maschine, entgegen der Anweisung des Towerlotsen von einem Rollweg gestartet, der parallel zwischen den beiden Start- und Landebahnen verläuft. Ein Flugzeug vom Typ Boeing 737, das zu einem Triebwerkprobelauf auf dem Rollweg stand und mit Technikern besetzt war, wurde bei dem Vorfall in geringer Höhe überflogen. Die Towerbesatzung hatte den Vorfall nicht bemerkt und war erst durch den Piloten der startenden Maschine informiert worden.
Die DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung GmbH meldete den Vorfall umgehend der Aufsichtsbehörde und der Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung (BFU), die ihre Untersuchung sofort aufnahm. Bei der DFS-internen Untersuchung wurden Unregelmäßigkeiten bei der Besetzung der Tower-Arbeitsplätze festgestellt. Die Untersuchung wurde Ende letzter Woche abgeschlossen und ergab, dass von den vier Mitarbeitern - drei Fluglotsen und eine Flugdatenbearbeiterin –zeitweise nicht alle Arbeitsplätze wie vorgeschrieben besetzt waren. Die DFS sieht im Verhalten der Mitarbeiter einen eklatanten Verstoß gegen die Vorschriften und hat die vier Mitarbeiter mit sofortiger Wirkung von der Tätigkeit im Tower suspendiert.
See the chart here. Taxiway in question is CHARLIE
Last edited by 20milesout; 6th Aug 2009 at 13:44.
HD
Couple of points:
1. I did NOT say that it was unsafe - that's an absolute. I said <<I cannot help but feel that it is safer>> - that's comparative.
2. I'm also a civil airline captain (up to B747) who's held a command in two international majors.
I politely expressed the opinion of an experienced professional and have read nothing which alters it.
I may say that Frankfurt, into which I have operated on many occasions, is a little 'odd'.
some journo plonker reads on here that an RAF pilot "felt it was unsafe"
1. I did NOT say that it was unsafe - that's an absolute. I said <<I cannot help but feel that it is safer>> - that's comparative.
2. I'm also a civil airline captain (up to B747) who's held a command in two international majors.
I politely expressed the opinion of an experienced professional and have read nothing which alters it.
I may say that Frankfurt, into which I have operated on many occasions, is a little 'odd'.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Australia
Age: 76
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a retired controller with 35 yrs experience, 20 in towers, I strongly believe aircraft should not be issued with a takeoff clearance until approaching the holding point ( early enough to avoid slowing down for the HP if possible) for the following reasons:
controller does a final runway scan and wind check
more meaningful coordination with departures
more certainty to the pilot he has a clearance when entering the rwy
confirmation that the pilot is approaching the correct rwy
greater certainty that there is no other aircraft on short final
controller does a final runway scan and wind check
more meaningful coordination with departures
more certainty to the pilot he has a clearance when entering the rwy
confirmation that the pilot is approaching the correct rwy
greater certainty that there is no other aircraft on short final
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 82
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Bild"
... written like a 13-year old....
INNFlight - "Bild" started life as a newspaper with pictures, and nothing but pictures, with very small captions....
The captions have grown over the years, but "Bild" will never be an "Economist" or "Spiegel" - written for a different target group.
INNFlight - "Bild" started life as a newspaper with pictures, and nothing but pictures, with very small captions....
The captions have grown over the years, but "Bild" will never be an "Economist" or "Spiegel" - written for a different target group.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I remember an airmiss my unit had back in the early eighties. It involved the only two aircraft in the sector in the middle of the night!
