Amsterdam- SEX, DRUGS, but no breath freshner
Guest
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Amsterdam- SEX, DRUGS, but no breath freshner
I hear that two BA crews have been breathalysed at AMS last SAT & TUES. On both occasions crews had departed LHR on early services.
Seems that the Dutch have their own Rules about this 1 unit within 10 hours. How this can actually be detected I can't tell.
However it seems to me you had better stay off the breath freshner if you are operating into AMS....
Seems that the Dutch have their own Rules about this 1 unit within 10 hours. How this can actually be detected I can't tell.
However it seems to me you had better stay off the breath freshner if you are operating into AMS....
Guest
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See also http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/010949.html (and numerous other related posts found doing a search under "breath" - gets lots of other ones too!).
Has anyone got a copy of the specific regulatory information that the AMS Police are quoting? Presumably it's JARs.
Has anyone got a copy of the specific regulatory information that the AMS Police are quoting? Presumably it's JARs.
Guest
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JT,
Do you think I find it funny to be told that I am guilty of drunken flying unless I prove otherwise???? As a non-drinker I have to prove to these creeps that I am not drunk. Why???
Do you really believe that the Dutch have a god given right to do away with one's right of being innocent until proven guilty? What they are doing is randomly attacking crews and denying them the right to continue with their livlihoods unless they agree prove they are below some given alcohol limit.
Never mind that half of those conductung the tests could be out of their trees on dope that theycan buy freely in town and doesn't show up on breathlysers.
Do you think I find it funny to be told that I am guilty of drunken flying unless I prove otherwise???? As a non-drinker I have to prove to these creeps that I am not drunk. Why???
Do you really believe that the Dutch have a god given right to do away with one's right of being innocent until proven guilty? What they are doing is randomly attacking crews and denying them the right to continue with their livlihoods unless they agree prove they are below some given alcohol limit.
Never mind that half of those conductung the tests could be out of their trees on dope that theycan buy freely in town and doesn't show up on breathlysers.
Guest
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NT,
So you *are* an aviation professional. The points you make in your most recent post are reasonable, although I disagree with most of them. But I don't fly for a living so I won't argue the toss.
Except to say that as a PPL if I were required to undergo a breath test whenever I took a passenger, or was subject to random breath tests (as do some countries for motoring), I would accept it as necessary in the interests of safety. Afterall, you and me do not have to worry about being caught over the limit do we? And providing our persecutors can still read their meters accurately, they are not flying aeroplanes.
It was the nature of your original post I found offensive - it did not seem to be written in jest.
So you *are* an aviation professional. The points you make in your most recent post are reasonable, although I disagree with most of them. But I don't fly for a living so I won't argue the toss.
Except to say that as a PPL if I were required to undergo a breath test whenever I took a passenger, or was subject to random breath tests (as do some countries for motoring), I would accept it as necessary in the interests of safety. Afterall, you and me do not have to worry about being caught over the limit do we? And providing our persecutors can still read their meters accurately, they are not flying aeroplanes.
It was the nature of your original post I found offensive - it did not seem to be written in jest.
Guest
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Why don't we all agree to blow in their machine to prove we are NOT DRUNK then refuse to operate the service say due the stress of the accusation.
I bet after all these a/c were laying around AMS the feds would soon be told to wind their necks in.
Wonder if someone has an incident would the post investigation put cause down to flight crew being stressed/preoccupied after being threatened with arrest etc.,
Sereously chaps/chapets we need to stop this random testing without due cause.
I bet after all these a/c were laying around AMS the feds would soon be told to wind their necks in.
Wonder if someone has an incident would the post investigation put cause down to flight crew being stressed/preoccupied after being threatened with arrest etc.,
Sereously chaps/chapets we need to stop this random testing without due cause.
Guest
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This is always a tricky and emotive subject. On the one hand those of us who are responsible professionals (a very high majority) take offence at being "checked" in this manner. On the other hand, pilots (and ATC controllers) have been known to report for duty under the influence of either alcohol or drugs. Some cases have been documented. I don't like it any more than most but then I think, hell if I know I'll pass why do I need to worry! IMHO they should check for drugs too though, which is an ever increasing problem.
Guest
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I got selected for a "random" alchohol test i India a couple of years ago.
Refused to blow in their machine.
Removed my head phones and asked to agent to call for a hotel van for the crew and arrange for hotel rooms for my 500 pax.
After a call to the higher-ups in Bombay, the
breath test was canceled and we flew out of there a few minuttes later.
Doubt the same would work in AMS, but as US airline employees working for a company with a FAA mandated random drug/alcohol program, we are not required random testing from any other source. I also remember the union backing us up in the aftermath of above incident: The boss asked, Well, why did you refuse the test?
Answer: In case of equipment not properly calibrated and false-positive result.
Don't know what ALPA says about this latest campaign in AMS.
Does anybody know???
------------------
Men, this is no drill...
Refused to blow in their machine.
Removed my head phones and asked to agent to call for a hotel van for the crew and arrange for hotel rooms for my 500 pax.
After a call to the higher-ups in Bombay, the
breath test was canceled and we flew out of there a few minuttes later.
Doubt the same would work in AMS, but as US airline employees working for a company with a FAA mandated random drug/alcohol program, we are not required random testing from any other source. I also remember the union backing us up in the aftermath of above incident: The boss asked, Well, why did you refuse the test?
Answer: In case of equipment not properly calibrated and false-positive result.
Don't know what ALPA says about this latest campaign in AMS.
Does anybody know???
------------------
Men, this is no drill...
Guest
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Don't know ALPA's very latest stand on this AMS business, but a lot of their beef had to do with airport police coming into the cockpit to conduct a randon testing in front of the passengers. I think ALPA got the State Dept involved, since DOT drug/alcohol testing rules do not call for random testing of foreign crews in the USA - only with probable cause (accident/behavior etc). United certainly has had a problem with this in AMS, and at one point late last year only management pilots were flying the route into AMS since UA MEC demanded that union line crews should not fly into AMS until it was straightened out. Presumably that has happened since UAL and other US cariers are operating normally into there.
Guest
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...well mr 411a, please, I am waiting to hear your off the wall connection with this and your thoughts on DEC's....if of course there is one ? Would a DEC's have done the same ? ????
come on mate, gloves off, a spirted reply please ....or are all you out of work DEC's in a bar somewhere drinking beer ?
come on mate, gloves off, a spirted reply please ....or are all you out of work DEC's in a bar somewhere drinking beer ?
Guest
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Just sent off the following e-mail to the RLD, the Dutch equivalent of the FAA. Will post their answer here if and when recieved.
I would very much appreciate an answer to the following questions.
What is the legal basis for the new procedure at Schiphol in which aircrews can and do get randomly tested for alcohol in the bloodstream. Any JAR OPS references or Dutch law would be welcome.
Do these tests only look for alcohol, or are other drugs tested for as well?
What are the consequences for crewmembers (and their company) if the individual (or the company) refuses to be tested?
Regards,
f40
I would very much appreciate an answer to the following questions.
What is the legal basis for the new procedure at Schiphol in which aircrews can and do get randomly tested for alcohol in the bloodstream. Any JAR OPS references or Dutch law would be welcome.
Do these tests only look for alcohol, or are other drugs tested for as well?
What are the consequences for crewmembers (and their company) if the individual (or the company) refuses to be tested?
Regards,
f40
I understand 3 CX crews on early morning flights departing AMS were tested. The problem is that 10 mins before departure in front of Pax these guys march onto the a/c. If the crew were discreetly asked to step aside whilst going through immigration etc it would be much more understandable although still unacceptable as a random test. This present procedure is however, totally unacceptable.
Guest
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TowerDog
"but as US airline employees working for a company with a FAA mandated random drug/alcohol program, we are not required random testing from any other source."
All countries have their own laws and surprisingly expect visitors (including americans and pilots) to obey them. Failure to do (including failure to provide a sample of breath if required) is generally regarded as a criminal offence, so it is not to be recommended.
In my view the Dutch legislation is entirely compatible with the Chicago Convention and it could be argued that it implements the requirements of Annex 2.
"but as US airline employees working for a company with a FAA mandated random drug/alcohol program, we are not required random testing from any other source."
All countries have their own laws and surprisingly expect visitors (including americans and pilots) to obey them. Failure to do (including failure to provide a sample of breath if required) is generally regarded as a criminal offence, so it is not to be recommended.
In my view the Dutch legislation is entirely compatible with the Chicago Convention and it could be argued that it implements the requirements of Annex 2.
Guest
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Flaps, and others,
This discussion has been going on for a while now, here`s the letter of the prosecutor general to the Dutch ALPA about this. It explains a lot.
College van procureurs-generaal
parket-generaal - bureau verkeershandhaving
Bureau Verkeershandhaving Openbaar Ministerie
R.H.W.A. Putman
0345-333310
10 november 2000
Alcoholcontroles in de luchtvaart
Vereniging van Nederlandse Verkeersvliegers
t.a.v. Dhr. P. Griffioen
Postbus 192
1170 AD Badhoevedorp
Dear Sir / Mrs.
The aviation police have recently performed the first breathalyzer tests on crewmembers from different airlines at Amsterdam Airport Schiphol. In the interest of air safety such checks will be frequently executed on the different Dutch airports in future. This letter is intended to inform you (further) on Dutch Law and regulations on this subject and the procedures that will be followed by the aviation police in the performance of their duty.
Laws and regulations
On the 1 st July 1999 the new Aviation Law (Wet Luchtvaart) came into force in which the relevant alcohol legislation is incorporated. This law applies to all persons involved in air traffic in the Netherlands (Amsterdam FIR), Dutch airlines abroad and traffic control. The law does not differentiate between commercial air traffic and private aviators.
The relevant prohibitive regulations are:
It is forbidden for a member of the crew to perform any activities on board of an aircraft with an alcohol level in their blood exceeding 0.2 ‰ or in their breath of 90 µg/L.
It is forbidden for a member of the crew to perform any activities on board of an aircraft if he has consumed alcohol during a period of 10 hours preceding such an activity.
It is forbidden for a member of the crew to perform any activities on board of an aircraft whilst under influence of a substance (i.e. medicine, drugs) that inhibits his ability to perform his duties properly.
Because the Law speaks of" performance of any activities" the pre-flight preparation phase is included in the prohibition.
The aviation police will be performing breathalyzer tests at random on all crew members in the flight centre as well as on board of the aircraft.
The procedure will be as follows:
When requested by the aviation police crew members are required to comply and co- operate in the execution of a preliminary breathalyzer test As much as possible these tests will be performed out of view of the general public.
This preliminary test is just a pre-selection device. The machine will show a letter indicating the absence of alcohol or the presence of it and will give a rough indication of the amount of alcohol involved. It alcohol is detected, the person involved will be arrested and escorted to the nearest police station for a breathalyzer test that will show the exact amount of alcohol present.
If the alcohol level exceeds the limit of 90 µg/L (0.2 ‰
a police report will be filed of the incident. If the test results in a level between 260 µg/L (0.6 ‰ and 434 µg/L (1.0 ‰ the license can he demanded and - depending 0fl earlier convictions - be retained. If the alcohol level exceeds the limit of 434 µg/L (1.0 ‰ the flight certificate will be demanded and retained. A request to have the license retimed can be directed to the local public prosecutors office.
If the alcohol level exceeds the limit of µg/L (0.2 ‰ the police is entitled to stipulate a no-flying time lasting up to 24 hours, depending on the alcohol level involved.
With this short summary of the law, regulations and procedure we hope to have given you a better insight into this subject. If you require more information or have questions concerning this matter, you are very welcome to contact the Bureau Verkeershandhaving Openbaar Ministerie.
Yours sincerely,
Mr. J. Spee
Hoofd Bureau Verkeershandhaving Openbaar Ministerie
I editted all the smilies out.
[This message has been edited by static (edited 11 April 2001).]
This discussion has been going on for a while now, here`s the letter of the prosecutor general to the Dutch ALPA about this. It explains a lot.
College van procureurs-generaal
parket-generaal - bureau verkeershandhaving
Bureau Verkeershandhaving Openbaar Ministerie
R.H.W.A. Putman
0345-333310
10 november 2000
Alcoholcontroles in de luchtvaart
Vereniging van Nederlandse Verkeersvliegers
t.a.v. Dhr. P. Griffioen
Postbus 192
1170 AD Badhoevedorp
Dear Sir / Mrs.
The aviation police have recently performed the first breathalyzer tests on crewmembers from different airlines at Amsterdam Airport Schiphol. In the interest of air safety such checks will be frequently executed on the different Dutch airports in future. This letter is intended to inform you (further) on Dutch Law and regulations on this subject and the procedures that will be followed by the aviation police in the performance of their duty.
Laws and regulations
On the 1 st July 1999 the new Aviation Law (Wet Luchtvaart) came into force in which the relevant alcohol legislation is incorporated. This law applies to all persons involved in air traffic in the Netherlands (Amsterdam FIR), Dutch airlines abroad and traffic control. The law does not differentiate between commercial air traffic and private aviators.
The relevant prohibitive regulations are:
It is forbidden for a member of the crew to perform any activities on board of an aircraft with an alcohol level in their blood exceeding 0.2 ‰ or in their breath of 90 µg/L.
It is forbidden for a member of the crew to perform any activities on board of an aircraft if he has consumed alcohol during a period of 10 hours preceding such an activity.
It is forbidden for a member of the crew to perform any activities on board of an aircraft whilst under influence of a substance (i.e. medicine, drugs) that inhibits his ability to perform his duties properly.
Because the Law speaks of" performance of any activities" the pre-flight preparation phase is included in the prohibition.
The aviation police will be performing breathalyzer tests at random on all crew members in the flight centre as well as on board of the aircraft.
The procedure will be as follows:
When requested by the aviation police crew members are required to comply and co- operate in the execution of a preliminary breathalyzer test As much as possible these tests will be performed out of view of the general public.
This preliminary test is just a pre-selection device. The machine will show a letter indicating the absence of alcohol or the presence of it and will give a rough indication of the amount of alcohol involved. It alcohol is detected, the person involved will be arrested and escorted to the nearest police station for a breathalyzer test that will show the exact amount of alcohol present.
If the alcohol level exceeds the limit of 90 µg/L (0.2 ‰
a police report will be filed of the incident. If the test results in a level between 260 µg/L (0.6 ‰ and 434 µg/L (1.0 ‰ the license can he demanded and - depending 0fl earlier convictions - be retained. If the alcohol level exceeds the limit of 434 µg/L (1.0 ‰ the flight certificate will be demanded and retained. A request to have the license retimed can be directed to the local public prosecutors office. If the alcohol level exceeds the limit of µg/L (0.2 ‰
the police is entitled to stipulate a no-flying time lasting up to 24 hours, depending on the alcohol level involved. With this short summary of the law, regulations and procedure we hope to have given you a better insight into this subject. If you require more information or have questions concerning this matter, you are very welcome to contact the Bureau Verkeershandhaving Openbaar Ministerie.
Yours sincerely,
Mr. J. Spee
Hoofd Bureau Verkeershandhaving Openbaar Ministerie
I editted all the smilies out.
[This message has been edited by static (edited 11 April 2001).]