British Airways Regional merge with CitiExpress

[Tandemrotor]

BALPA - Do you have your eye on the ball this time, or are you going to allow the Regions to be shafted AGAIN!!!

If you do, please excuse me for laughing when all your (our) pigeons come home to roost at fortress Heathrow. Remember, you read it hear first!!!!

Incidentally, I currently earn my keep at LHR. "It's life Jim, but not as we know it!"

[52049er]

Overstress - I prefer R325R meself Yup - attacking R308R does show, how can I put it, a lack of 'local' knowledge?

As far as BAR pilots working for BACE, the word seems to be that if the situation improves and 100+ routes remain available, there is a chance that BACE will wet lease 319/318's from BA. As far as us drivers are concerned, that would be a fairly similar situation to present, except that there would be no rosterers/crewcontrol etc at egbb - which I for 1 would miss, plus no decent nightstops (sounds familiar ) and a lot of egbb/egpf/egbb/lfpg/egbb/egpf days. We are on mainline contracts and so may have the option of moving to RJ's, but that should (!) be an option.

The feedback I get from customers (especially those many we take from tech'd emb's) is that they do much prefer the 'bus. Not surprising really but with a CEO wedded too frequency (see his recent egbb crewroom briefing) I guess if a customer wants flights at 7.00, 12.00 and 17.00 to Rome hes only going to get an embraer.

Customer service eh? Funny how that doesnt seem to have been factored in to the way our customer service specialists seem to have been treated. Once again our crew colleagues have stunned me with their sheer professionalism and ability to keep a smile under the most difficult of times. More than once over the last few days I've seen a tearful, worried and frankly furious CCM turn on the charm and service once aboard. Bravo - we are thinking of you!!

[rhythm method]

Please let's stop the BACE bashing.

References to how BA mainline are getting the job done while the franchises are not performing don't wash too well.

R308R, don't personally care who you are, but having looked at the first 8 months 'on time punctuality' figures released for 2001, BAR only managed an average of 55.5% for the 8 months. BRAL however managed 63.75% (Manx was even higher). I'd also like to point out that these figures only refer to punctuality and no reference is made to flights which couldn't go due poor wx, a/c unserviceability, etc, but in defence the companies don't even use the same guidelines to record punctuality. BAR use the time the door is closed. We on the other hand record the time we actually move off stand (much harder to be on time by our rules yet we do manage it more often).

I think there is a trend for criticising BACE already, but let's be fair, at present the choice would appear to be dole queue or BACE... If the boot was on the other foot and I'd been earning your high salaries and was now faced with these new T+C's I would be slightly financially worried, but we've been living like this for years and it can be done.

Presently BA are in financial diffs and all means to reduce costs and overheads are necessary. Filling a barbie jet instead of half-filling a 'bus means PROFIT. Everyone needs to waken up and smell the coffee. It is a business not a charity we're running.

I do feel for people who will be made redundant in these difficult times, but we at BACE are bending over backwards to help out at present (indeed it means mega-upheaval and disruption to our own plans). BA's problems have forced us to freeze all external recruitment. How would BA crews have felt if you were suffering redundancies whilst we continued to hire as was planned?

Not really one for proverbs but I believe this one may fit in nicely...

..DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS!

[direct chase]

BAR punctuality is not measured on doors closed, it is measured on brakes release. On time has a plus 3 min window

BHX punctuality with the 319 has actually outperfomed Brymon/BRAL and BAR at MAN ...fact not fiction. average daily on time ( brake release !!) has been as high as 85% some weeks (measured over a 7 day period) indeed a number of days at 100%

No one is argueing that the 50 seater offers a better shedule, and no one is argueing that the pax. prefer the 319. What is needed and will happen is a mix of aircraft being able to offer the best service in terms of frequency/choice of destination/cost

As for the 318/319/320 flying in BACE....these types of aircraft offer the options as above.

There is no change to to the way the 319 will be crewed, it will be flown by BA pilots who operate to a BAR sheduling document.

Maybe one day there will be opportunities for BA pilots and BACE pilots to move across the fleets, but at the moment there is not.

What is important is that we all get through this crisis. We are all paid by BA whatever our terms and contracts may be.

[knows]

I'm a bit surprised that the Citiexpress crews haven't asked to be treated the same way that Cityflyer crews were treated recently.
<It seems, after reading pprune, that some Citiexpress crews are actually pleased to see BA being " dragged down" to their levels of remuneration/rostering.>

Surely it would be better for all communities if we could join the companies AND achieve improvenments to their pay/lifestyle ( such as CFE enjoy. )

[Hand Solo]

There certainly seems to be a misconception by one BACE poster that BAR pilots are to be dragged down to T&Cs of BACE, but this is not the case. It's business as usual for us on our not-so-high salaries. We are actually the cheapest and most productive base in flight crewbase in BA and many of our ex-charter DEPs claim they work as hard if not harder now for less cash (but more roster stability). There also appears to be a perception that BACE are 'saving our bacon' in a time of crisis. WRONG! Management figures show loads improved since last year, and are barely impacted by Sept 11. This 'crisis' merger has been on the cards for well over a year and represents the BAR managements utopian dream of forcing everyone on a BA contract to work for peanuts. If this wasn't planned, then why did the BAR Chief Pilot take a secondment to run Brymon about 6 months ago?

BA in Birmingham has been running at a profit for some time, and its certainly not a question of BACE or the dole queue. I'm not exactly sure how BACE have been 'bending over backwards' to help (though I'm willing to be corrected). Rather as you use the terminal we pay for, the ground customer service staff we pay for and the dispatchers we pay for, not to mention access to the BA ticket sales network and brand and the exec lounge, I think BACE do rather well out of the deal.

[Red Snake]

BACE isn't a different company! It is BA - costs are born by BA & profits are returned to BA. Which part of BA pays for lounges, tickets, network, marketing is irrelevant - it's just internal squabbling. At the end of the day it's profit and cost. BA's job, as that of any business, is to maximise the former & minimise the latter. And try not to shaft too many people in the process.

[Fool's Hole]

R308R


QUOTE:
"Now I know some of you will point the finger at some of the BA francisees or subsideries who may not be as good with reliability and achieving a high schedual achievment as BA"

Just tell me what is the ACTUAL difference between BA and a franchise aircraft like a Maersk 737 for instance?
Where is the difference?
Are the people that fly the aircraft made of different particles?
Are the cabin crew a BA brand of person?
How different are they?

What is BA, when it could just become a bunch of highly paid managers that franchise away every single flight so there are no employees or aircraft or indeed any overheads at all????

How come you believe that BA are different, when it's just a Concept?

[habibi]

Brymon has been making a good profit, under difficult conditions (and pay) we don't want to undermine anyone else's pay, we'd just like to improve ours a little, reducing someone else's won't help. Arguing about who's better than who or who's better at getting off chocks helps no-one, we shuld be helping each other out supporting the pay and conditions of those at the top of th e tree and trying to improve those at the bottom, having first ensured survival. EGPWS I think that Brymon Embrears have that - for what it's worth, oh and some of the Dash 8's have leather seats - aprt from that though the A319's are a world apart, but are a tad more expensive.......

[HOVIS]

Rhythm method,

I have to agree with 'Chase, The BAR fleet are timed when doors are closed and brakes are off. Many are the times when I have been asked by a captain if he can release the brakes even though the tug hasn't arrived, or there is a line of traffic a mile long behind the a/c with no chance of pushing back.

As for your comments regarding recruitment,
BRAL/BACE engineering are still recruiting externally even though the MAN hangar is closing and 120+ staff are looking for jobs!

To all you pilots currently working for BAR, good luck, you are going to need it, as we have been well and truly shafted.

Nice working with you over the years, see you at the job centre.

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: HOVIS ]

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Exerts from a memo to BAR staff dated 5/10/01 from the GM UK Business.

"Therefore it is our intention to combine our two UK subsideries (Citiexpress and BAR)by CLOSING BAR over a period of time and intergrating the operations with BA Citiexpress.The synergies resulting from the intergration, along with the tactical capacity reductions and network changes, will mean the regional business will employ 200 fewer people in the future.
(Apparently they are not merging but Citiexpress is taking over BAR?)
The long term strategic fleet plans for the UK regions is to re-equqip the fleet, replacing the 737 and A319 aircraft with smaller regional jets. Current Citiexpress Staff have been told that the model for their terms and conditions in the future willbe based on the current BRAL model (presume that's the chepest labour?)
We intended to relocate BA Citiexpress Ops in Manchester. However, following recent events resulting in a downturn in business and a subsequent embargo on capital expenditure we have decided to consolidate our operations into the IOM, and decision which is unlikely to change before April 2003. This means the PLY Ops centre and Line Mx Control at BRS will close.The BAR Ops centre at BHX will continue to control the BAR Operation ( for how long )
The info sheet also included some Q and A which was basically a load of management answers.The question of "what will be offered to BA Pilots flying for BAR" was answered as
"BAR Pilots are on mainline contracts, however, in view of the current crises hitting BA, Flight Ops Mgmt will be discussing with BALPA about how best to accommodate BA Pilots flying for BARand the new work falling to BA ****yExpress

So in basic terms the Ground Staff will remain on their basic pay, the Pilots will slide back into LHR, and the BAR Cabin Crew are getting shafted.
I wonder if the Management will go to Bral wages.....

[Amazon man]

Mr Angry from Purley,

Please dont start a slanging match with us here at Citiexpress formerly BRAL.

As a pilot with the former Bral our salaries were and are fairly near the top for the type of work we do. We didn't ask for the merger into BA we were a pretty successful airline before the franchise agreement,the subsequent franchise benefitted both companies.

The plain fact is that with or without Sept 11th BAR and BA mainline were going to face some very serious decisions as to what the future shape of BA was going to be, it seems to me that sometimes this was only obvious to those outside the airline.

The other point I rather dislike is the suggestion that we are a rather inferior product to BA proper, this is simply not the case.The aircraft we operate are obviously smaller, but I for one much prefer flying in our aircraft than much bigger types ,the seat pitch is good and high back seats far more comfortable than many bigger aircraft.Many passengers have commented on the above to me in the past.Most importantly of all they make money with only a few seats filled,and yes many of the aircraft in the fleet have the leather seats like your mainline aircraft,in fact we wanted them before BA but they refused, worried that they would look and offer a better product than their own aircraft.

Whatever happens in the future both of our survival depends on BA and the steps it takes in the next few months , Citiexpress will no doubt become a larger part of that survival you should welcome that it may benefit you in the long term, dont forget we have been around for some eighteen years ourselves thats not a bad record for what was a small airline in a very harsh business and we have never made anybody redundant during that time.

Lets pull together not fall apart.

[wayward]

well said Amazon Man
We have been merged and have to get on with it.There is no point critising and slagging off Bace.We didn`t ask to be merged with BAR,just as BAR didn`t ask to be merged with BACE.It was a business decision.We are on our second merger in 5 months.
If anyone doesn`t want to join BACE then they need to seriously think of the alternatives.There are a lot of people being made redundant, with very little hope of an immediate return to flying with another airline.
I can understand the concerns of changing to a less financially attractive terms and conditions.No one really wants to earn less money for the same amount of work.Berating BACE solves nothing.

It doesn`t solve your problems

[rhythm method]

Wayward, you beat me to it!

As Amazon so rightly said, we didn't seek this BAR merger. It is being forced upon us and is the reason some of us will be disadvantaged in promotional terms (BACE crews know what I'm talking about as its been on our company forum for over a week now).

However let's look at the bigger picture. MAX PROFIT from every route is one of the priorities right now. One half full Airbus or 737 may mean a minimal operating profit. Put an Embraer on the route and it's now full and operating at MAX PROFIT!!! GET IT?
Yes it's only a baby plane in your mind but it CAN do what is required (and it pains me to say that as BACE crews will know!).

The other facts about BAR operating on schedule better than us as Hovis corrected me... I've only got my facts (if they are facts) from BAR dispatchers. We've been told in the past that if they exit the aircraft and shut the door at STD then we're 'ON TIME' by their rules. Perhaps flight crew are told that 'brakes off' time is what counts, but not in our books. If I release the brakes with a tug attached and don't leave stand for another 10 minutes then my passengers think I'm late (they're right). I didn't want to get into a slanging match about on-time or not, but I won't accept incorrect assumptions that BAR are doing the job so much better than us. WE ARE NOT THE INFERIOR PRODUCT THAT SOME OF YOU IMPLY. We strive to better you at every opportunity and that's just from pride in our work (perhaps some could learn a lesson from this).

As a whole I want BA to succeed; 3 of my family are employed in differing branches of BA / BA subsidiaries so I'm viewing this all with a balanced opinion.

LET'S MUCK TOGETHER AND DIG OURSELVES OUT OF THIS SH*THOLE THAT TOP-LEVEL MANAGEMENT HAVE BURIED US IN OVER RECENT YEARS!

[edited for minor mis-spelling due drunkenness! (I'll bet there are others I won't spot till the morning!)]

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: rhythm method ]

[Bigpants]

The Times 10th October "Airline executive steals £2m after losing his bonus"

During 2 years at BRYMON Airways Mr S*******s saved the company between £4 and £6million with his expertise as a financial controller. He was expecting to be given about 30% of that sum as a bonus but the money was never paid.

He then set up a company to make false payments to himself and.....for the next 12 MONTHS! and 36 plus payments got away with it.

It was only when the Engineering Director realised that a large part of his budget was being paid to a company that he had never heard of that action was taken. Nice to know that we employ such sharp on the ball engineering managers.

Mr S******s Boss was apparently unsympathetic and had cut his performance bonus to £100...In the finest tradition of BA management I might add.

£750,000 is still unaccounted for... not a bad return given he will probably serve 12 months max of the 4 year sentence

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Bigpants ]

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Bigpants ]

[Bigpants]

"FOR SALE AIRBUS A319"

Due to lack of annual/any bonus "owner" reluctantly offers this aircraft for sale fsh low mileage and leather seats. Option pack includes Cat 3 Autoland, EGPWS and many other extras.

Quite literally a steal at £5 million (ovno) will deliver anywhere in Europe.

[wayward]

Just knock one word off that sentence and I`ll buy it for a fiver

[FlyboyUK]

I met the MD of CitiExpress yesterday, seems that BAR has been making a loss for some time.

Just because we operate smaller aircraft doesnt mean that we are inferior to the mailine product. Afterall the NCL-BHX service made £2m profit for the company in the past 12 months and that's on a Jetstream! (By the way most of the jetstreams now have EGPWS and are all catII)

[heavy_landing]

Flyboy UK, couldn't agree more. But we definately will offer an inferior product when we only operate Embraers etc to, say, FRA vs Lufthansa in shiny 321s. I can't really see how you can argue with that(and it pains me to say it, as a 73 driver!). So loads reduce, we operate smaller a/c, loads reduce.............
What galls most regional pilots, is that we can see a time, not so far into the future, where the structure of the fleet is much the same as it is now, but the remuneration is drastically lower; and that level is way below other operators of similar size jet a/c in the UK, never mind mainland Europe.
I'm reasonable enough to realise that we can't demand ever increasing salaries if the market won't bear it, but a lot of what is happening now smell of cynical opportunism to me.

[Sick]

EGPWS on a Jetstream - Are you sure?