Yemeni airliner down?
Reminders of the need to conduct a safety assessment at all airports for any risks of ALA, and to use check altitudes and range for all approaches;- Threats During Approach and Landing.
Also to refresh the problems of a ‘black hole’ approach, particularly in turning flight, see Incidents 1 and 8.
Also to refresh the problems of a ‘black hole’ approach, particularly in turning flight, see Incidents 1 and 8.
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Critics within France's Comoran community have claimed that safety lapses may have doomed the aircraft.
Yemenia Airways is canceling all its flights between Yemen and the Comoros Islands after this week's crash on the same route, the airline said Saturday.
Yemenia seems to have a reasonable safety record up to now...so all this knee-jerk nonsense about this accident is just that....nonsense.
Until proven otherwise.
Nothing like waiting for the final report, now is there...
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AirBubba
Thanks for your correction. Narita it was.
Since Middle East carriers hold one of the world's lowest accident stats (source: Flight Safety Foundation, Boeing) the Europeans can point a fiinger all they want. Fair enough. It's their perogative, a legitimate concern to us all, and it's a concern all professional pilots should understand. Including those at Yemenia. Experience levels on the flight deck are dropping and that means there's but one direction for the accident stats to go. We'll see when the Europeans have concluded their examination of carriers flying into Europe and let them decide who gets the Red Cards.
Fair enough indeed.
With all due respect, if you fly the A310 (or any airliner for that matter) you have practiced numerous go-arounds and become fairly comfortable with any 'behavior' issues your aircraft may have. Two engines. One engine. Good, bad, or otherwise. Right? So let's not make excuses before the fact.
Don't give me 'the A310 can be a beast on a go around' line, when any A310 pilot worth his salt can fly a go around and know what to expect from the A/T THR LATCH or AP Trim on a go. I don't care if you're climbing to 2000 feet or any thousand feet after a miss.
The fact spatial disorientation may have been a factor, is a potential and realistic risk here. As suggested earlier, if it was a concern to this crew it would/should have been briefed. (let's wait for the CVR evidence)
No one likes speculating more than me, but there just isn't enough info yet to enjoy that sport. IMHO
411A - Well said!
Willie
Thanks for your correction. Narita it was.
Since Middle East carriers hold one of the world's lowest accident stats (source: Flight Safety Foundation, Boeing) the Europeans can point a fiinger all they want. Fair enough. It's their perogative, a legitimate concern to us all, and it's a concern all professional pilots should understand. Including those at Yemenia. Experience levels on the flight deck are dropping and that means there's but one direction for the accident stats to go. We'll see when the Europeans have concluded their examination of carriers flying into Europe and let them decide who gets the Red Cards.
Fair enough indeed.
With all due respect, if you fly the A310 (or any airliner for that matter) you have practiced numerous go-arounds and become fairly comfortable with any 'behavior' issues your aircraft may have. Two engines. One engine. Good, bad, or otherwise. Right? So let's not make excuses before the fact.
Don't give me 'the A310 can be a beast on a go around' line, when any A310 pilot worth his salt can fly a go around and know what to expect from the A/T THR LATCH or AP Trim on a go. I don't care if you're climbing to 2000 feet or any thousand feet after a miss.
The fact spatial disorientation may have been a factor, is a potential and realistic risk here. As suggested earlier, if it was a concern to this crew it would/should have been briefed. (let's wait for the CVR evidence)
No one likes speculating more than me, but there just isn't enough info yet to enjoy that sport. IMHO
411A - Well said!
Willie
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I can easily imagine that if spatial disorientation/black hole etc. was a factor it would not have been briefed.
there are pilots who really don't have a clue. I'm not saying the crew in this situation is either good or bad.
I've been with pilots who don't think ahead...the old joke was that this type of person would never die in a crash since they were so far behind the plane.
there are pilots who really don't have a clue. I'm not saying the crew in this situation is either good or bad.
I've been with pilots who don't think ahead...the old joke was that this type of person would never die in a crash since they were so far behind the plane.
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Spatial disorientation isn't normally briefed. I have never heard one. All pilots know it is a consideration and must be prepared to handle it if it happens. Being a professional pilot dealing with it should be a disciplined procedure to still fly the aircraft properly even though you experience the problem. I have been there and dealt with it so don't think it should ever cause a crash with an experienced crew. JFK Jr. had the problem and died but he didn't fly an airplane 15 days a month like most of us do.
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Thanks for your correction. Narita it was.
China Airlines Flight 140 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Accident of China Airlines 140 in April 1994
Airbubba:
Exsp33db1rd:
WilleEverlearn:
The above accident was at Nagoya.
I used to operate in and out of Nagoya during this period and still remember the crash site that was reasonably close to the runway.
Tmb
Exsp33db1rd:
WilleEverlearn:
The above accident was at Nagoya.
I used to operate in and out of Nagoya during this period and still remember the crash site that was reasonably close to the runway.
Tmb
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wx
just to stay on the same line
Yemenia Flight 626 - IY626 - A detailed meteorological analysis - Satellite and weather data
Yemenia Flight 626 - IY626 - A detailed meteorological analysis - Satellite and weather data
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along time ago, I (and millions of other pilots) used the back course of an ILS to help orient themselves during approaches in VMC.
IF one ''shot'' the ILS to runway 2 and then maneuvered to the west , entering either a circling procedure or downwind, one could still use the ILS back course (if useable) to help find the center line of runway 20.
Indeed, I would have set heading bug in advance of each turn and one to intercept the extended centerline of the runway (back course/ils) in order to avoid orientation problems.
A strictly, ''out the window" approach would be tough at night, over water...and even tougher from the LEFT seat.
Hmmm....any chance the lights for the landing gear didn't illuminate and an ''everglades'' scenario interrupted the basic flying, while circling??????
IF one ''shot'' the ILS to runway 2 and then maneuvered to the west , entering either a circling procedure or downwind, one could still use the ILS back course (if useable) to help find the center line of runway 20.
Indeed, I would have set heading bug in advance of each turn and one to intercept the extended centerline of the runway (back course/ils) in order to avoid orientation problems.
A strictly, ''out the window" approach would be tough at night, over water...and even tougher from the LEFT seat.
Hmmm....any chance the lights for the landing gear didn't illuminate and an ''everglades'' scenario interrupted the basic flying, while circling??????
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Team? I hate making mistakes so thanks for the correction, yet again. But, Fatigue + Scotch + Late-in-the-evening = Narita for some reason. (silly me!)
I stand corrected. Again. It was Nagoya. How stupid of me to say Narita??? Sorry. They stood the 600 on its tail in Nagoya. (just came back from Narita recently, oopsy) Right you are.
That said, the first point I'd like to make is, WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND FLIES A CIRCLING APPROACH IN A JUMBO JET?
Okay, before you start, some have done it. I know. Out of necessity. I know. Can be done. I know.
Who in their right mind circles in a widebody, in a black hole, hand flying (presumably), TWICE??? 'kin twice no less???
I don't mean to raise the ire of some but this entire read so far smacks of PE. A bold statement, I know. But, c'mon.
Opinions?
Flight International this week makes much of this approach and how potentially dangerous it can be with various chart warnings regarding winds, windshear and turbulence.
What about Rhodos, and a couple of other Greek Islands out there. Seems to me this approach looks quite similar to some of them.
Caribbean? Puerto Plata?
I really don't think this approach is as unique as one might believe.
Comments?
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Who in their right mind circles in a widebody, in a black hole, hand flying (presumably), TWICE??? 'kin twice no less???
Been there,
done that,
got the T-shirt.
Excuse any ignorance but why would you have to hand fly a circling approach? The operator I fly for regularly flies circling approaches at certain airports and we make maximum use of the AFDS flying a well defined circuit until disengagement when turning base leg etc.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Hopefully the CVR if found and useable will explain how they got where they did. Any 'g/a' should have taken them to the NW, not the north, and even the hold would not take them that far north - and is at 8000'. Yet another 'mystery'. I have not seen any map (just words) showing the crash position - has anyone photoshopped one?
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Disorientation and Leans versus "the illusions"
.
Probably be moderated out yet again but a valid point is that spatial disorientation, the leans and somatogravic illusions are three entirely different phenomena.
The more common affliction during the nippy acceleration of light-weight go-rounds is the pitch-up illusion.
.
Probably be moderated out yet again but a valid point is that spatial disorientation, the leans and somatogravic illusions are three entirely different phenomena.
The more common affliction during the nippy acceleration of light-weight go-rounds is the pitch-up illusion.
.
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I used to fly in there at night. I do not know what type of approach Yemenia use, but I can tell you that the one we were approved to use was very uncomfortable. It involved lights on the side of the volcano to help with positioning etc... all of this usually accompanied with moderate turbulance. It is the one airport I tried to lose recency on. 