Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air France A330-200 missing

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air France A330-200 missing

Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:13
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With no firm evidence yet available, it seems unusual that AF feel able to publicly state the cause at this stage.

Maybe they have information that they have not yet made available to the public?
Carjockey is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:17
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Scotland
Age: 79
Posts: 807
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Regarding ships

It's highly unlikely that the watch on a bridge will be looking out for falling aircraft; their view of the sky - from inside - is practically nil.

Having said that you can be pretty certain that all ships in the possible vicinity were alerted quickly and that at the very least their courses would be altered to cross the possible wreckage path. Ships traveling between East Coast South America and Europe are pretty much under the flight path and I would guess that at least twenty commercial vessels right now will have all the crew that's awake on a sharp lookout.

By the way Automatic Vessel Identification System or AIS only works in vhf range.
broadreach is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:17
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, UK
Age: 38
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Message is normally sent via ACARS after several sensors confirm a failure (data are checked by a maintenance oriented system). So the sending of the failure message is not immediate. I would say the possibility of the message being sent during the break up is highly unlikely.
stadedelafougere is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:18
  #224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 43
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sparelung:

The flight crew would breathe 100% Oxygen under pressure at FL350. Sure it wont last forever, but longer than the PAX 15mins oxygen supply, and one would think give enough time for crew to find a suitable exit strategy. If the path behind was clear of CB activity, turn around and fly out the way you came in!?
Aerospace101 is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:18
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: London
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The reports of texts from the plane would not be the first tasteless hoax of this type. Someone was prosecuted in Greece, I believe, for pretending to have received a text from someone on board the Helios 737 that crashed near Athens.
Frangible is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:24
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Thessaloniki, GRECE
Age: 40
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yeap, in Cyprus, where i come from. It was a foreigner who was at the time living and working in Cyprus, and thought of playing the cruel farce of claiming he received an sms from a friend passenger on the plane that he saw the pilot of the plane turning blue in his face and running towards the back of the plane. And that the passengers were also freezing and that the alleged friend was scared.

Later on investigation prooved that he didn't know anyone on board and he was arrested when he admited the farce.

I think he (or his lawyer) later claimed he was either a lunatic or suffered from depression.
Christodoulidesd is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:24
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: At the bar
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And surely the ACARS would pick up a lot more failures if it was breaking up.
ImPlaneCrazy is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:27
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morten Harkett, Dorset
Age: 100
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For what it's worth ACARS is a fairly primitive digital system, invented in the 1970's and works in a similar way to Telex.
barrymung is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:34
  #229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Crescenta, CA
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flying through thunderheads

Responding to messages implying that airliners studiously avoid CBs:
As a scientist and relatively frequent SLF mostly in the US, I'd say that incidental CB penetration is fairly common. I've experienced many episodes over the years, usually at high altitudes when the PF is attempting to stay at the ATC assigned altitude and thread between overshooting tops hidden in the anvil cirrus. The last one was just a week ago over Colorado. As heard on Ch 9 on UAL, a missed ATC check-in led to confusion when the pilot requested a diversion around a CB. We were denied the turn and clipped the convective tower leading to violent updrafts and downdrafts for about 30 sec. Just about every flight over terrain in the southwest or anywhere in the southeast this time of year is a roulette wheel for convective excitement given the volume of air traffic around/over storms, and the Alps in summer speak for themselves. I think the biggest problem could be dry CB tops which don't show up well (or at all) on the WX radar (especially a problem over Africa, I gather). Flying through anvil cirrus or at night, I suspect the PF won't see it until the plane is inside it. Certainly, I have experienced night-time ITCZ CB penetration on the way to Australia where I saw the clouds and lightening prior to the turbulence. Of course, most of these are non-events in terms of fatal consequences (just a little more fatigue on the airframe and PF/CC/SLF nerves), but citing the manuals on CB avoidance doesn't seem to capture the true richness of today's flight environment. As to how CB penetration guidelines or lore may have contributed to today's tragedy, I only speculate, but normalization of deviance can be a killer.
Apologies for the non-pilot post - back to lurking...
astrodeb is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:35
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, UK
Age: 38
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To bring some corrections:

The passengers came from numerous countries:

Paris, 01 juin 2009 - 19h41 heure locale
Communiqué N° 5
Air France est en mesure de confirmer les nationalités des passagers qui se trouvaient à bord du vol AF 447 du 31 mai 2009, disparu entre Rio de Janeiro et Paris-Charles de Gaulle. Cette liste a été constituée sur la base des informations fournies par les autorités brésiliennes.

1 Africain du Sud
26 Allemands-Germans
2 Américains- US
1 Argentin
1 Autrichien- Austrians
1 Belge
58 Brésiliens
5 Britanniques
1 Canadien
9 Chinois
1 Croate
1 Danois
2 Espagnols
1 Estonien
61 Français
1 Gambien
4 Hongrois
3 Irlandais-Irish
1 Islandais
9 Italiens
5 Libanais
2 Marocains
1 Néerlandais-Netherlands
3 Norvégiens-Norwegians
1 Philippin
2 Polonais
1 Roumain
1 Russe
3 Slovaques
1 Suédois-Swedes
6 Suisses
1 Turc
stadedelafougere is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:44
  #231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 43
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unlike the hudson ditching, the air france ditching into the atlantic would be faced with;
-sea swell
-unstable atmospheric conditions
-night - no visual references
-no immediate rescue

Not the best conditions
Aerospace101 is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:44
  #232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sonoma, CA, USA
Age: 79
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Composites and Lightning Strikes

In the early to mid 90s I was doing air to air videos for kitplane manufacturers. Glassair in Arlington, WA was one of our clients.

There was great concern over the effects of lightning strikes on composite airframes. When hit by lightning, they often exploded.

The solution was to incorporate a wire mesh into the composite layers.

Glassair was also doing contract research for Boeing at the time.
Robert Campbell is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:44
  #233 (permalink)  
AlwaysOnFire
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: **** you PPRUNE!
Age: 23
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
1 Africain du Sud-South African
26 Allemands-Germans
2 Américains- US
1 Argentin-Argentinan
1 Autrichien- Austrians
1 Belge-Belgian
58 Brésiliens-Brazilian
5 Britanniques-Great Britain
1 Canadien-Canadian
9 Chinois-Chinese
1 Croate-Croatian
1 Danois-Danish
2 Espagnols-Spanish
1 Estonien-Estonian
61 Français-French
1 Gambien-Gambian
4 Hongrois-Hungarian
3 Irlandais-Irish
1 Islandais-Icelandic
9 Italiens-Italian
5 Libanais-Lebanese
2 Marocains-Maroccans
1 Néerlandais-Netherlands (Holland)
3 Norvégiens-Norwegians
1 Philippin-Philippino
2 Polonais-Polish
1 Roumain-Romanian
1 Russe-Russian
3 Slovaques-Slovakian
1 Suédois-Swedes
6 Suisses-Swiss
1 Turc-1 Turkish
alexmcfire is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:46
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Itinerant
Posts: 825
Received 45 Likes on 10 Posts
sottens, re buoyancy and DFDR/CVR.

It's not a stupid question; many safety experts and engineers have suggested and even worked on possible designs.

In essence there are some serious problems associated with a design that would work as intended, and with the requisite VERY high reliability. One simple example of a problem with the concept is that, in order for the recorder to not remain trapped under whatever sturcture or parts or debris it might be underneath, it would have to be "jettisoned" somehow, rather than simply "deployed". That in itself leads to a myriad of additional design, engineering, certification, and other issues. As always, any resultant action is a function of cost versus relative benefit. In this example, there are very few instances where recorders have not been retrieved -- regardless of ocean depth or location -- so there is really no incentive to spend the enormous amounts of time and money to change the current specs.
grizzled is online now  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:49
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
> how many bars of pressure can the black box take, because were that's situated on
> the aircraft surely has taken it down to the bottom of the atlantic withit, IF being the
> case. That blackbox will crush.

The US specifications, which I think are similar to those in other countries, require that they withstand depths of up to 20,000 feet.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm

Note also that the NTSB site suggests that the pinger can be received at up to 14,000 feet (2.65 statute miles), though the way the description is written, one could infer that it won't work below 14,000 feet. In any event, a surface ship wouldn't pick up the signal if the box was at a depth of more than 14,000 feet without some sort of towed antenna.
ST27 is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:49
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: london
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unhappy Fly by wire

i am a non professional. I would like to know what the role of "fly by wire" could be in lightning storms. Presumably such aircraft have very high protection against electrical surges ? Are FBW aircraft more prone to control problems during electrical storms ?
freshgasflow is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 19:51
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
-- so there is really no incentive to spend the enormous amounts of time and money to change the current specs.
and in any case this technology might be overtaken by improvements in data comms that allow key data to be copied to a server in a safe location during flight.
deltayankee is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 20:00
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: newcastle
Age: 29
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sky says the presidents deliverd the news to the familys.
Its now very much a serch and recover mission.
air-cadet is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 20:03
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Effin' Limbo
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In answer to the post about a flight not being cleared to avoid and hitting the cb I'd like to add my two cents.

Don't ask for avoidance. Tell them you're avoiding. That's how I do it, and I've never had a problem yet. What they do to reshuffle what they have to reshuffle is their problem - but I'm not flying into a ****storm.
Max Stryker is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2009, 20:04
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
location found (sorta)

Air France annonce avoir localisé la zone où l'avion a disparu lundi matin, Amériques - Information NouvelObs.com

Rough translation from Google reads:

"Air France announced it has located the area where the plane disappeared Monday morning. The CEO of Air France says that the area was located "a few tens of miles around. Des passagers de 33 nationalités dont 61 Français, 58 Brésiliens et 26 Allemands se trouvaient à bord de l'appareil. Passengers of 33 nationalities including 61 French, 58 Brazilians and 26 Germans were on board the aircraft."
silverhalide is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.