U.S. Navy EP-3 forced down by Chinese
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Whilst the commercial arm of the Red Army owns so much of Miami beach front property and lots of other bits of the USA, a war is very unlikely how ever far Bush goes. Yes they do have one and it it is very rich and powerful.
If war does break out between the US and China and Americans looking for somewhere safe should go to Miami. The Red Army are unlikely to attack that part of the US and damage all the property they own.
If war does break out between the US and China and Americans looking for somewhere safe should go to Miami. The Red Army are unlikely to attack that part of the US and damage all the property they own.
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I find this thread embarrassing, literally shameful in parts. Yank baiting is certainly in vogue - but why??
The United Staes has been our closest ally for most of the last century or so. The nearest bits of Europe, France, Germany, Belgium Spain, Italy etc have either been on the other side, or, having got themselves into a jingoistic pickle, have required the help of both ourselves and the USA to pull their chestnuts out of the fire.
The East? Eastern Europe ? A collection of totalitarian corruption based regimes, that oppress and execute their own citizens - these are the guys daring to criticise US for OUR treatment of THEIR fleeing refugees!
The Middle East? Another collection of totalitarian regimes, this time fundamentally based in religious beliefs, murdering and bombing each other over who owns which piece of oil rich real estate. The one and only democracy out there, Israel, is once again perceived as the bad guy, although it is the only freely elected government in the area, and the only country which has actually developed any of the desert based countryside.
The far East? More totalitarian regimes, communism, poverty and death - with the exception of Japan which has made a valiant and praiseworthy effort to learn from history instead of repeating it. Sure there are others, Singapore, South Korea which are expanding well, but try slagging off their Governments in a public place, and then see if you can obtain bail!
I could go on in a geopolitical tour around the world. But for Christ's sake, America is probably the best meaning Country in the world. It is the one which every one else goes to for handouts, it genuinely tries to help, to do what it thinks is best on moral and ethical grounds most of the time, accompanied by the breast beating and hair rending that is the sign of a free democracy. Sure, it makes some mistakes, but it doesn't cause the death of millions of its citizens - The Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution,the Second World War, The Korean War (hmm, seem to remember China in that one) The Killing Fields, The Gulag, The Balkans, the Gulf.......I could go on and on.
Does anyone here seriously think we would have won the Falklands without America. Or the Gulf war? Or even the Balkan conflict. Agree or disagree with the motives behind American and British involvement these conflicts, they were shiny and pure compared to the motives of the people who started them. Compare as well the amount of guys who actually did the business there. It came down, as ever, to the Brits and the Americans. If I was American though, I would be asking why the majority of the front line stuff, the intelligence, the bodies on the ground, the hi-tech equipment was all provided by themselves, with a very small sharp end contribution from the UK. The rest of them - don't make me laugh.
This is very unfashionable stuff, I grant you. It is very easy to criticise from a safe distance. Sure, the CIA probably isn't whiter than white, just like the SIS. But I know who I'd rather be dealing with if it came to a choice between them and the KGB, or the equivalent service in China. America at least TRIES to do the right thing. I feel ashamed to be English reading some of the jealous, biased vindictive claptrap here.
Any military pilots out there. How many of you have been involved in tactical low level fast jet flying? Well it's not quite like operating the morning London Shuttle, or a long haul flight to JoBurg. Accidents happen, and while I don't pretend its ideal, to slag off the USArmed Forces is plain ignorant. I don't recall seeing the same harassment of the RAF crew who took out a cottage in the Lake District last year.
I must stop this, I doubt I'm doing any good anyway. Do stop to think though, just for a moment, whether ANY of you at all think you would be in your comfortable piece of suburbia, your comfortable house, lifestyle and job had it not been for the United Staes of America involvement both in joining in to the last Great War, having a majority share in winning it, a majority share in keeping Western Europe free during the Cold War, and maybe most significant of all, funding the Marshall Plan to rebuild another continent while all the people resident on that continent(from the Alps to the Urals) could think of was stripping it of its assets.
When you are dealing with the forces of evil (to be even more unfashionable) you can't always stay clean, in the open air on a white charger. Sometimes its necessary to get down in the slime, in the dirt where the evil lives, and its a tad difficult to appear squeaky clean when you're doing that.
For Christ's sake, give them a break. They're on OUR side - or at least, they were till you lot started.
The United Staes has been our closest ally for most of the last century or so. The nearest bits of Europe, France, Germany, Belgium Spain, Italy etc have either been on the other side, or, having got themselves into a jingoistic pickle, have required the help of both ourselves and the USA to pull their chestnuts out of the fire.
The East? Eastern Europe ? A collection of totalitarian corruption based regimes, that oppress and execute their own citizens - these are the guys daring to criticise US for OUR treatment of THEIR fleeing refugees!
The Middle East? Another collection of totalitarian regimes, this time fundamentally based in religious beliefs, murdering and bombing each other over who owns which piece of oil rich real estate. The one and only democracy out there, Israel, is once again perceived as the bad guy, although it is the only freely elected government in the area, and the only country which has actually developed any of the desert based countryside.
The far East? More totalitarian regimes, communism, poverty and death - with the exception of Japan which has made a valiant and praiseworthy effort to learn from history instead of repeating it. Sure there are others, Singapore, South Korea which are expanding well, but try slagging off their Governments in a public place, and then see if you can obtain bail!
I could go on in a geopolitical tour around the world. But for Christ's sake, America is probably the best meaning Country in the world. It is the one which every one else goes to for handouts, it genuinely tries to help, to do what it thinks is best on moral and ethical grounds most of the time, accompanied by the breast beating and hair rending that is the sign of a free democracy. Sure, it makes some mistakes, but it doesn't cause the death of millions of its citizens - The Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution,the Second World War, The Korean War (hmm, seem to remember China in that one) The Killing Fields, The Gulag, The Balkans, the Gulf.......I could go on and on.
Does anyone here seriously think we would have won the Falklands without America. Or the Gulf war? Or even the Balkan conflict. Agree or disagree with the motives behind American and British involvement these conflicts, they were shiny and pure compared to the motives of the people who started them. Compare as well the amount of guys who actually did the business there. It came down, as ever, to the Brits and the Americans. If I was American though, I would be asking why the majority of the front line stuff, the intelligence, the bodies on the ground, the hi-tech equipment was all provided by themselves, with a very small sharp end contribution from the UK. The rest of them - don't make me laugh.
This is very unfashionable stuff, I grant you. It is very easy to criticise from a safe distance. Sure, the CIA probably isn't whiter than white, just like the SIS. But I know who I'd rather be dealing with if it came to a choice between them and the KGB, or the equivalent service in China. America at least TRIES to do the right thing. I feel ashamed to be English reading some of the jealous, biased vindictive claptrap here.
Any military pilots out there. How many of you have been involved in tactical low level fast jet flying? Well it's not quite like operating the morning London Shuttle, or a long haul flight to JoBurg. Accidents happen, and while I don't pretend its ideal, to slag off the USArmed Forces is plain ignorant. I don't recall seeing the same harassment of the RAF crew who took out a cottage in the Lake District last year.
I must stop this, I doubt I'm doing any good anyway. Do stop to think though, just for a moment, whether ANY of you at all think you would be in your comfortable piece of suburbia, your comfortable house, lifestyle and job had it not been for the United Staes of America involvement both in joining in to the last Great War, having a majority share in winning it, a majority share in keeping Western Europe free during the Cold War, and maybe most significant of all, funding the Marshall Plan to rebuild another continent while all the people resident on that continent(from the Alps to the Urals) could think of was stripping it of its assets.
When you are dealing with the forces of evil (to be even more unfashionable) you can't always stay clean, in the open air on a white charger. Sometimes its necessary to get down in the slime, in the dirt where the evil lives, and its a tad difficult to appear squeaky clean when you're doing that.
For Christ's sake, give them a break. They're on OUR side - or at least, they were till you lot started.
Guest
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well guys,
its nice to know who your friends are in a time of crisis. i will not bother with the laundry list of mistakes and bad judgement of the various european countries represented on this board. its not worth my time. i'm sure that our laundry list is a bit longer than yours as our military is a little larger than yours.
what i have learned from the enlightening posts here is that it is our fault that our servicemen are being held hostage by communist china. not only that, we had it comin'.
nice talking to you chaps. i have really had my eyes opened about the true attitudes of our european "friends". england shows lots of love when it benefits them either economically or otherwise (when they're being invaded).
[This message has been edited by LMD (edited 06 April 2001).]
its nice to know who your friends are in a time of crisis. i will not bother with the laundry list of mistakes and bad judgement of the various european countries represented on this board. its not worth my time. i'm sure that our laundry list is a bit longer than yours as our military is a little larger than yours.
what i have learned from the enlightening posts here is that it is our fault that our servicemen are being held hostage by communist china. not only that, we had it comin'.
nice talking to you chaps. i have really had my eyes opened about the true attitudes of our european "friends". england shows lots of love when it benefits them either economically or otherwise (when they're being invaded).
[This message has been edited by LMD (edited 06 April 2001).]
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>>I find this thread embarrassing, literally shameful in parts. Yank baiting is certainly in vogue - but why??<<
Hey, when you're number one, everyone else is jealous... As always, the next thread will be on how to get a green card <g>.
Americans don't lose too much sleep about what goes on in the UK or Canada. I'm sure none of my neighbors could name the prime minister of Canada for example. However Canadians and Brits are absolutely obsessed with American politics and culture as evidenced by the previous posts in this thread.
Indeed, it is hard to be humble when you're one of the chosen few to be born in the promised land!
Hey, when you're number one, everyone else is jealous... As always, the next thread will be on how to get a green card <g>.
Americans don't lose too much sleep about what goes on in the UK or Canada. I'm sure none of my neighbors could name the prime minister of Canada for example. However Canadians and Brits are absolutely obsessed with American politics and culture as evidenced by the previous posts in this thread.
Indeed, it is hard to be humble when you're one of the chosen few to be born in the promised land!
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IT'S APPROPRIATE -
In this case, America, is if anything, to be commended. The Chinese do not have anything but the Chinese agenda to offer the world. With the potential for a nuclear attack, China is to be genuinely feared. Therefore, the spying is necessary and the U.S. is doing the world a favor.
In the background is Clinton's facilitation of the Chinese nuclear and missile development, however.
While the USA has a prideful history and still has much to offer, any intelligent American can cite more corruption than justice. The trend is getting worse. If the world isn't made aware of that, the power corruption is guaranteed to run away. Every person holding the U.S. accountable is necesssary. You have to go past the headlines.
I'm a Viet Nam veteran who learned the hard way what the American agenda was. That 'war' had nothing to do with human rights and battled communism only by coincidence. Check out the military-industrial complex ownership. It was billions of tax dollars for Texas. Does that sound familiar???? You're going to see it again. Check out the CURRENT ownership of the military-space-industrial complex. Boeing will move to Dallas.
Getting back to the subject, it's now appropriate to hold the Chinese accountable.
In this case, America, is if anything, to be commended. The Chinese do not have anything but the Chinese agenda to offer the world. With the potential for a nuclear attack, China is to be genuinely feared. Therefore, the spying is necessary and the U.S. is doing the world a favor.
In the background is Clinton's facilitation of the Chinese nuclear and missile development, however.
While the USA has a prideful history and still has much to offer, any intelligent American can cite more corruption than justice. The trend is getting worse. If the world isn't made aware of that, the power corruption is guaranteed to run away. Every person holding the U.S. accountable is necesssary. You have to go past the headlines.
I'm a Viet Nam veteran who learned the hard way what the American agenda was. That 'war' had nothing to do with human rights and battled communism only by coincidence. Check out the military-industrial complex ownership. It was billions of tax dollars for Texas. Does that sound familiar???? You're going to see it again. Check out the CURRENT ownership of the military-space-industrial complex. Boeing will move to Dallas.
Getting back to the subject, it's now appropriate to hold the Chinese accountable.
Guest
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sky drifter,
"any intelligent American can cite more corruption than justice."
this is a rediculous statement. the corruption gets the news, the justice does not. i am not naive enough to think that the U.S. is completely innocent in everything but i do believe that we are basically a good people who make occasional mistakes. let the those without sin cast the first stone. if you do the right thing 99% of the time and screw up 1%, what do you think is going to get the headlines?
you sound like you are comparing china's human rights record with the U.S.'s. if this is the case then you are completely off base.
"any intelligent American can cite more corruption than justice."
this is a rediculous statement. the corruption gets the news, the justice does not. i am not naive enough to think that the U.S. is completely innocent in everything but i do believe that we are basically a good people who make occasional mistakes. let the those without sin cast the first stone. if you do the right thing 99% of the time and screw up 1%, what do you think is going to get the headlines?
you sound like you are comparing china's human rights record with the U.S.'s. if this is the case then you are completely off base.
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I was about to agree that the Yank baiting has gone far enough. What kind of image do you people think this nonsense projects to the general public about British professionals?
Then Airbubba wades in with the sort of garbage that dangles the worm.
As for Wino's solution to the problem.... Speechless!
Then Airbubba wades in with the sort of garbage that dangles the worm.
As for Wino's solution to the problem.... Speechless!
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I have personally been embarrassed by some of the anti-American rantings on this thread, but if there's one thing worse than an envious European anti-American, it's the kind of red-necked, slack-jawed, introspective ultra-right wing American who provokes such prejudice. Glad some of them could join us.
LMD: "England shows lots of love when it benefits them either economically or otherwise (when they're being invaded)."
Our support of America usually ends up costing us either money or European friends. Your help has never been timely enough to be of any use 'when we're being invaded' (the last time that happened was 1066). Both world wars were already being won by the time you lot joined them. But we support you when it's the right thing to do, not just out of self interest.
Oh, and LeArn when to usE caPitaL letters, you morOn. you don' deserve no politeness or courTesy.
Airbubba: "Americans don't lose too much sleep about what goes on in the UK or Canada. I'm sure none of my neighbors could name the prime minister of Canada for example." I hope you won't be offended if I suggest that this may a reflection on middle-America's self-obsessed insularity. It's hardly something to be proud of, I'd have thought.
"However Canadians and Brits are absolutely obsessed with American politics and culture as evidenced by the previous posts in this thread." Could it not be that we're just better-educated (when it comes to the wider world) and more interested in the world around us. We realise that things happen outside London, Manchester, Toronto and Montreal, whereas I often wonder if many Americans know or care about what goes on outside their fine nation.
AJ: Might I politely take you to task over your accusation? (That: "The time when England was associated with Gentlemen, politeness and courtesy is sadly over.") You may regard it as unfortunate that you live in the UK, but some of us regard it as a pleasant place to live, on the whole, and I personally would wish to disagree with you most forcefully. If you don't mind me saying so.
LMD: "England shows lots of love when it benefits them either economically or otherwise (when they're being invaded)."
Our support of America usually ends up costing us either money or European friends. Your help has never been timely enough to be of any use 'when we're being invaded' (the last time that happened was 1066). Both world wars were already being won by the time you lot joined them. But we support you when it's the right thing to do, not just out of self interest.
Oh, and LeArn when to usE caPitaL letters, you morOn. you don' deserve no politeness or courTesy.
Airbubba: "Americans don't lose too much sleep about what goes on in the UK or Canada. I'm sure none of my neighbors could name the prime minister of Canada for example." I hope you won't be offended if I suggest that this may a reflection on middle-America's self-obsessed insularity. It's hardly something to be proud of, I'd have thought.
"However Canadians and Brits are absolutely obsessed with American politics and culture as evidenced by the previous posts in this thread." Could it not be that we're just better-educated (when it comes to the wider world) and more interested in the world around us. We realise that things happen outside London, Manchester, Toronto and Montreal, whereas I often wonder if many Americans know or care about what goes on outside their fine nation.
AJ: Might I politely take you to task over your accusation? (That: "The time when England was associated with Gentlemen, politeness and courtesy is sadly over.") You may regard it as unfortunate that you live in the UK, but some of us regard it as a pleasant place to live, on the whole, and I personally would wish to disagree with you most forcefully. If you don't mind me saying so.
Guest
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jacko,
did you call me a moron? i actually thought that you were one of the reasonable ones here. sorry my lack of capitol letters has upset you so. deal with itand lay off the sauce. by the way, i am glad to hear that you had WWII all rapped up. i am not sure why we wasted hundreds of thousands of american lives. what a waste. i guess the majority of those tomb stones on normandy beach have brit names? you know, you complain because america gets involved too much in world politics but then you complain that we didnt jump in soon enough. make up your mind, MORON. how are those capital letters for you?
i know hundreds of brits, and everyone is extremely nice and pleasant to me. some i consider to be very good friends. but since the majority on here are rude and bitter, i can only assume that you dont have the balls to tell me to my face how you really feel about me.
[This message has been edited by LMD (edited 06 April 2001).]
did you call me a moron? i actually thought that you were one of the reasonable ones here. sorry my lack of capitol letters has upset you so. deal with itand lay off the sauce. by the way, i am glad to hear that you had WWII all rapped up. i am not sure why we wasted hundreds of thousands of american lives. what a waste. i guess the majority of those tomb stones on normandy beach have brit names? you know, you complain because america gets involved too much in world politics but then you complain that we didnt jump in soon enough. make up your mind, MORON. how are those capital letters for you?
i know hundreds of brits, and everyone is extremely nice and pleasant to me. some i consider to be very good friends. but since the majority on here are rude and bitter, i can only assume that you dont have the balls to tell me to my face how you really feel about me.
[This message has been edited by LMD (edited 06 April 2001).]
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BP ol buddy we are not all anti American over here, our neighbours are the French and they seem to detest us. Sure we are happy we don't speak German but lets face it we paid good cash and a number of military bases for that help. At the end of the day we are the only country in the world that the USA can rely on for solid support.
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It seems to me theres a surprising lack of objectivity here. Forget Yank-bashing, it's fun and frequently deserved but NOT HERE.
There are various versions of what happened, and we may never know the details, why should we, we're not entitled to secret military intelligence after all, are we?
China is the worlds most militarised nation and is rearming as re-developing its forces at a dramatic pace. It is very close indeed to true nuclear ICBM capability. Their standing army is measured in MILLIONS! China also has one of the worlds worst human rights records, and has within the last generation perpetrated one of the worlds largest and most brutal genocides ever. China is a very dangerous and unpredicrtable lose canon on the worlds stage.
One of Chinas biggest bugaboos is Taiwan, formerly a part of the "Peoples Republic" (an oxymoron if ever there was one)but now a true independant republic supported very much by the West, and USA in particular. The Chinese have always refused to accept the independance of Taiwan and have repeatedly made it clear that they intend to take it back, by force if necessary. That is a pretty unequivocal position. They have repeatedly carried out extremely aggressive and ambiguous military "exercises" near Taiwan, including the recent launch of a nuke capable missile over Taiwan, which scared some folks in the Pentagon pretty bad. I say agan, they intend to take Taiwan by force if necessary, and sooner or later they will try. Believe it.
Up until now they have not had the moxie to do that, the power of the US military was too great to risk it. Now with the Wests military status and political will at a low, and their nukes, missiles and Navy at an all time high they may get to that dangerous position where a nation with a proven contempt for western values, the UN, anyone elses national sovereignty and human decency in general may try to pull off a flyer. Thats a bit like Germany was under Herr Schickelgruber in 1937, Saarland and all that.
Knowing that the US carrier forces are their biggest conventional hazard they have just recieved two of the meanest cruisers the Sovs ever built, Sovrenminiy class(or similar speling..). They have 2 more coming. These little darlings pack huge supersonic anti ship missiles that are almost impossible to detect, let alone stop. This class of ship was designed specifically by the Sovs to take out CVNs - the big US carriers. And soon China will have4 of them. There is no need on God's earth for those missiles except to sink 100,000 ton carriers, and only one nation has those. So why do you suppose China bought those very costly ships?
Thus it is hardly surprising that the E3 was paying very close attention to one of those ships (in international waters and airspace, where both were entitled to be)inorder to ascertain its capabilities and equipment, as any prudent future victim would do. The most credible scenario I have seen suggests the E3 flying low and slow around the cruiser, intercepted very aggressively by two fighters and effectively kidnapped by them, forced to comply as they had made their intentions to shoot otherwise well known. The E3 put out a Mayday at this point, as well it might. That action by the Chinese (if true) came pretty close to an act of War.
No doubt the E3 made little effort to keep up, and with the red mist down one of the "Republics" "finest" got too close, too slow and either departed/stalled and collided, or collided and stalled. Being at low level the result was predictable.
There seems little doubt that China is 100% in the wrong for causing the incident by kidnappind a foreign aircraft in international airspace, but the big worry is how much of a leg-up they have got by grabbing all that technology and computers. They will soon know exactly what the US can see/hear and thus work out countermeasures.
And if China continues on its aggressive and bellicose policy towards Taiwan as well as other places those countermeasures may be critical if the US navy is to avoid a disaster that would make Pearl Harbour look like a small boating accident.
After the carriers have gone, or been scared so far away as to be useless, what do you suppose George Dubya would have left to prevent the invasion of Taiwan with? Baseball bats?
And how would China reply?
This is a pretty serious scenario, speculative maybe but based on hard facts, if you doubt it ask yourself why China needs those bloody great anti ship missiles. There is only one answer.
To my mind the scary question is not why, but when?
There are various versions of what happened, and we may never know the details, why should we, we're not entitled to secret military intelligence after all, are we?
China is the worlds most militarised nation and is rearming as re-developing its forces at a dramatic pace. It is very close indeed to true nuclear ICBM capability. Their standing army is measured in MILLIONS! China also has one of the worlds worst human rights records, and has within the last generation perpetrated one of the worlds largest and most brutal genocides ever. China is a very dangerous and unpredicrtable lose canon on the worlds stage.
One of Chinas biggest bugaboos is Taiwan, formerly a part of the "Peoples Republic" (an oxymoron if ever there was one)but now a true independant republic supported very much by the West, and USA in particular. The Chinese have always refused to accept the independance of Taiwan and have repeatedly made it clear that they intend to take it back, by force if necessary. That is a pretty unequivocal position. They have repeatedly carried out extremely aggressive and ambiguous military "exercises" near Taiwan, including the recent launch of a nuke capable missile over Taiwan, which scared some folks in the Pentagon pretty bad. I say agan, they intend to take Taiwan by force if necessary, and sooner or later they will try. Believe it.
Up until now they have not had the moxie to do that, the power of the US military was too great to risk it. Now with the Wests military status and political will at a low, and their nukes, missiles and Navy at an all time high they may get to that dangerous position where a nation with a proven contempt for western values, the UN, anyone elses national sovereignty and human decency in general may try to pull off a flyer. Thats a bit like Germany was under Herr Schickelgruber in 1937, Saarland and all that.
Knowing that the US carrier forces are their biggest conventional hazard they have just recieved two of the meanest cruisers the Sovs ever built, Sovrenminiy class(or similar speling..). They have 2 more coming. These little darlings pack huge supersonic anti ship missiles that are almost impossible to detect, let alone stop. This class of ship was designed specifically by the Sovs to take out CVNs - the big US carriers. And soon China will have4 of them. There is no need on God's earth for those missiles except to sink 100,000 ton carriers, and only one nation has those. So why do you suppose China bought those very costly ships?
Thus it is hardly surprising that the E3 was paying very close attention to one of those ships (in international waters and airspace, where both were entitled to be)inorder to ascertain its capabilities and equipment, as any prudent future victim would do. The most credible scenario I have seen suggests the E3 flying low and slow around the cruiser, intercepted very aggressively by two fighters and effectively kidnapped by them, forced to comply as they had made their intentions to shoot otherwise well known. The E3 put out a Mayday at this point, as well it might. That action by the Chinese (if true) came pretty close to an act of War.
No doubt the E3 made little effort to keep up, and with the red mist down one of the "Republics" "finest" got too close, too slow and either departed/stalled and collided, or collided and stalled. Being at low level the result was predictable.
There seems little doubt that China is 100% in the wrong for causing the incident by kidnappind a foreign aircraft in international airspace, but the big worry is how much of a leg-up they have got by grabbing all that technology and computers. They will soon know exactly what the US can see/hear and thus work out countermeasures.
And if China continues on its aggressive and bellicose policy towards Taiwan as well as other places those countermeasures may be critical if the US navy is to avoid a disaster that would make Pearl Harbour look like a small boating accident.
After the carriers have gone, or been scared so far away as to be useless, what do you suppose George Dubya would have left to prevent the invasion of Taiwan with? Baseball bats?
And how would China reply?
This is a pretty serious scenario, speculative maybe but based on hard facts, if you doubt it ask yourself why China needs those bloody great anti ship missiles. There is only one answer.
To my mind the scary question is not why, but when?
Guest
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thanks PA7,
you sound more like the many brits that i call my friends. i am not asking for the english to bow down and kiss our feet. helping out our friends in times of trouble is what it is all about. and yes you are correct. the UK is usually the first to jump to our side when we need your help. this is why i was so surprised by many of the comments on this and other threads. i thought the french were your enemy:~)
you sound more like the many brits that i call my friends. i am not asking for the english to bow down and kiss our feet. helping out our friends in times of trouble is what it is all about. and yes you are correct. the UK is usually the first to jump to our side when we need your help. this is why i was so surprised by many of the comments on this and other threads. i thought the french were your enemy:~)
Guest
Posts: n/a
LMD,
I have the balls to tell you to your face what I think of you. I think you've posted some pretty outrageous anti-British and anti-European sentiments - probably unintentionally - while criticising others for being anti-American. But I've also got the balls to apologise for moron. I'm sure it's just your style. I'm sure you're a charming chap. And I won't even mention your occasional spelling lapses (joke!).
But the attitude that we "owe you for all you've done for us" is offensive and wrong-headed.
And the serious point is that this kind of 'big-headed', America-is-best, belittling attitudes which a particular type of American may come out with can cause the very hostility which you complain of. I'm fairly pro-American. I've urged a slackening of the anti-Americanism on this very thread. If I could live anywhere in the World, I'd probably pick the US Southwest for its beauty and its hospitable, laid back, charming people. I do love New York! I like most Americans - I find them kind, generous, well-meaning and (old fashioned word) decent. But even I can be provoked into rage by some of the attitudes expressed. And sometimes it's simple carelessness or lack of education that leads to these misunderstandings, rather than outright hostility or rudeness. Some, for example, would be infuriated by your reference to Normandy Beach - you're referring to Omaha, of course, where the losses were appalling, but the very fact that you refer to it in the singular could be taken as a lack of appreciation for what the Brits and Canadians did at Juno and Sword. It's like the U-571 Hollywood film, in which the US captured the Enigma coding machine - complete fiction which ignored a major UK contribution to Allied victory. Imagine how you'd feel if we made a film which inferred that it was the British Royal Marines who raised the flag at Iwo Jima?
Yes, we should be grateful for your help, and we are. Without you, the War would have dragged on for a decade. And we might (but probably only might) have lost. But invasion of the UK ceased to be a reality halfway through the Battle of Britain. The war in Africa was effectively won with the Battle of El Alamein (without US help). The defeat of Nazi Germany in the East became inevitable with the defeat at Stalingrad.
Without the USA, mainland Western Europe may have remained part of the Reich for decades (though without oil, that's debateable). Without the USA, we'd probably have lost India two or three years before we granted independence anyway. "But the attitude that we'd all be speaking German" ignores the contribution that we made to the eventual victory, in all theatres, and if you step back and think about it, I'm confident that you're broad minded and intelligent enough to agree.
Your original remarks inferred that we also owed you for previous and other wars (the Cold War, damned right, couldn't have done it without you, ditto the Gulf, ditto the Balkans, and thanks for making the Falklands a lot easier, too). But during the Great War, the American contribution was relatively tiny, and very late. You've also 'stiffed us' on a number of occasions, when we might have expected loyalty from an ally, and we paid (sometimes 'through the nose') for some of the lend-lease equipment supplied before Pearl Harbour. It cuts both ways - the Special Relationship has had ups and downs.
And I'm sure you don't mean to infer that only America suffered casualties in Normandy - or anywhere else. As a pilot yourself, 55,000 RAF Bomber Command dead might have some vague resonance for you, perhaps?
At the end of the day, it's all about mutual respect and understanding - if there isn't respect, there's almost bound to be suspicion, contempt and abuse. So please understand that most Europeans (and certainly most Brits) would think that generally the US is great, but sometimes isn't. That sometimes it should play more of a part on the World stage, and sometimes less.
I have the balls to tell you to your face what I think of you. I think you've posted some pretty outrageous anti-British and anti-European sentiments - probably unintentionally - while criticising others for being anti-American. But I've also got the balls to apologise for moron. I'm sure it's just your style. I'm sure you're a charming chap. And I won't even mention your occasional spelling lapses (joke!).
But the attitude that we "owe you for all you've done for us" is offensive and wrong-headed.
And the serious point is that this kind of 'big-headed', America-is-best, belittling attitudes which a particular type of American may come out with can cause the very hostility which you complain of. I'm fairly pro-American. I've urged a slackening of the anti-Americanism on this very thread. If I could live anywhere in the World, I'd probably pick the US Southwest for its beauty and its hospitable, laid back, charming people. I do love New York! I like most Americans - I find them kind, generous, well-meaning and (old fashioned word) decent. But even I can be provoked into rage by some of the attitudes expressed. And sometimes it's simple carelessness or lack of education that leads to these misunderstandings, rather than outright hostility or rudeness. Some, for example, would be infuriated by your reference to Normandy Beach - you're referring to Omaha, of course, where the losses were appalling, but the very fact that you refer to it in the singular could be taken as a lack of appreciation for what the Brits and Canadians did at Juno and Sword. It's like the U-571 Hollywood film, in which the US captured the Enigma coding machine - complete fiction which ignored a major UK contribution to Allied victory. Imagine how you'd feel if we made a film which inferred that it was the British Royal Marines who raised the flag at Iwo Jima?
Yes, we should be grateful for your help, and we are. Without you, the War would have dragged on for a decade. And we might (but probably only might) have lost. But invasion of the UK ceased to be a reality halfway through the Battle of Britain. The war in Africa was effectively won with the Battle of El Alamein (without US help). The defeat of Nazi Germany in the East became inevitable with the defeat at Stalingrad.
Without the USA, mainland Western Europe may have remained part of the Reich for decades (though without oil, that's debateable). Without the USA, we'd probably have lost India two or three years before we granted independence anyway. "But the attitude that we'd all be speaking German" ignores the contribution that we made to the eventual victory, in all theatres, and if you step back and think about it, I'm confident that you're broad minded and intelligent enough to agree.
Your original remarks inferred that we also owed you for previous and other wars (the Cold War, damned right, couldn't have done it without you, ditto the Gulf, ditto the Balkans, and thanks for making the Falklands a lot easier, too). But during the Great War, the American contribution was relatively tiny, and very late. You've also 'stiffed us' on a number of occasions, when we might have expected loyalty from an ally, and we paid (sometimes 'through the nose') for some of the lend-lease equipment supplied before Pearl Harbour. It cuts both ways - the Special Relationship has had ups and downs.
And I'm sure you don't mean to infer that only America suffered casualties in Normandy - or anywhere else. As a pilot yourself, 55,000 RAF Bomber Command dead might have some vague resonance for you, perhaps?
At the end of the day, it's all about mutual respect and understanding - if there isn't respect, there's almost bound to be suspicion, contempt and abuse. So please understand that most Europeans (and certainly most Brits) would think that generally the US is great, but sometimes isn't. That sometimes it should play more of a part on the World stage, and sometimes less.
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Posts: n/a
jacko,
if you read my posts carefully you will see that i have never posted anything anti-UK. once again, i have many, many friend that are british. as a matter of fact i love your country. i love spending time there (worlds best beer).
if you read my above posts you will see that i do not expect others to bow down and kiss our feet. i have never said or implied that you owed us anything. but i certainly expect to get the benifit of the doubt from our friends. you are the one who just spat on the graves of the hundreds of thousands of young american soldiers who died on battle fields thousands of miles away. yet when we have a very murky situation between communist china and your "brothers" across the atlantic a great number here rip america. i just dont understand it. why so much hostility towards us? what have we done to you? someone else posted earlier that you never see anti-UK remarks in the US press. i this is because you guys never make mistakes.
i have never said that "america is best" but just as you have every right to be proud of your country, i have a right to be very proud of my country. i just dont understand why so many here are so happy and flippant about the troubles of a basically sibling country that has stood and died next to you (as you have stood with us) during times of war.
so no, i dont think you owe us anything more than a little respect and compassion. i think we have earned that at least.
p.s. sorry for my spelling errors. i guess i need to learn the "english" language a little better:~)
if you read my posts carefully you will see that i have never posted anything anti-UK. once again, i have many, many friend that are british. as a matter of fact i love your country. i love spending time there (worlds best beer).
if you read my above posts you will see that i do not expect others to bow down and kiss our feet. i have never said or implied that you owed us anything. but i certainly expect to get the benifit of the doubt from our friends. you are the one who just spat on the graves of the hundreds of thousands of young american soldiers who died on battle fields thousands of miles away. yet when we have a very murky situation between communist china and your "brothers" across the atlantic a great number here rip america. i just dont understand it. why so much hostility towards us? what have we done to you? someone else posted earlier that you never see anti-UK remarks in the US press. i this is because you guys never make mistakes.
i have never said that "america is best" but just as you have every right to be proud of your country, i have a right to be very proud of my country. i just dont understand why so many here are so happy and flippant about the troubles of a basically sibling country that has stood and died next to you (as you have stood with us) during times of war.
so no, i dont think you owe us anything more than a little respect and compassion. i think we have earned that at least.
p.s. sorry for my spelling errors. i guess i need to learn the "english" language a little better:~)