U.S. Navy EP-3 forced down by Chinese
Guest
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Hopefully, this will all work itself out shortly. If the EP-3 was damaged and in distress, I think, regardless of fault, China should not inspect the A/C. However, the same should be same if the roles were reversed. It is different if the arrival of an A/C is due to defection.
At a minimum China should return the crew-O.K. keep the A/C-that stings, but it is really not what is important, is it?
The U.S. "capitalist" machine is money driven. As a capitalist myself I have no problem with that. However, I feel over the last 10 years, the U.S. has deluded itself as to what China is or a least can be. It is a functioning superpower with a potent military, with xenophbic leadership (actually or apparently)- but the U.S. has been salivating over it as the worlds largest market- think profits. I daresay if you think the stock markets are hurting now, wait until we walk away from or China nationalizes the investment in mainland China.
Finally- If China could spy on the U.S. in the same fashion they would- so no apology should be required. But if it takes an apology to square this away so be it. We'll just stick China later when we can.
At a minimum China should return the crew-O.K. keep the A/C-that stings, but it is really not what is important, is it?
The U.S. "capitalist" machine is money driven. As a capitalist myself I have no problem with that. However, I feel over the last 10 years, the U.S. has deluded itself as to what China is or a least can be. It is a functioning superpower with a potent military, with xenophbic leadership (actually or apparently)- but the U.S. has been salivating over it as the worlds largest market- think profits. I daresay if you think the stock markets are hurting now, wait until we walk away from or China nationalizes the investment in mainland China.
Finally- If China could spy on the U.S. in the same fashion they would- so no apology should be required. But if it takes an apology to square this away so be it. We'll just stick China later when we can.
Guest
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EFFICIENCY -
When Janet Reno blocked the FBI from investigating the Chinese spy on the basis that to investigate a suspected Chinese spy was racism, China doesn't need aircraft.
China got their nuclear secrets; the case will be blown in the courts. In a similar fashion, another Chinese spy was allowed to cop a plea in exchange for dropping further investigation.
Can you imagine plea bargaining on an espionage charge???
Now, watch the Chinese immigration INCREASE into the U.S..
China doesn't need spy aircraft & satellites.
When Janet Reno blocked the FBI from investigating the Chinese spy on the basis that to investigate a suspected Chinese spy was racism, China doesn't need aircraft.
China got their nuclear secrets; the case will be blown in the courts. In a similar fashion, another Chinese spy was allowed to cop a plea in exchange for dropping further investigation.
Can you imagine plea bargaining on an espionage charge???
Now, watch the Chinese immigration INCREASE into the U.S..
China doesn't need spy aircraft & satellites.
Guest
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DESTRUCTION -
There are a number of destruction methods, depending on the components. Low-powered explosive charges may be used for the hard-core stuff, shredders for the paper, high-intensity magnetic coils for the recording media, etc. All the destructive stuff has to be fast-acting, as human hands obviously might not be fast enough.
This event may upgrade the destruction methods, as they barely had time to do anything, given the aircraft gyrations. We'll never know the truth on the destruction extent.
In retrospect, they would have done well to have an aircraft destruction method, also, such as a timed thermite grenade over a fuel tank.
There are a number of destruction methods, depending on the components. Low-powered explosive charges may be used for the hard-core stuff, shredders for the paper, high-intensity magnetic coils for the recording media, etc. All the destructive stuff has to be fast-acting, as human hands obviously might not be fast enough.
This event may upgrade the destruction methods, as they barely had time to do anything, given the aircraft gyrations. We'll never know the truth on the destruction extent.
In retrospect, they would have done well to have an aircraft destruction method, also, such as a timed thermite grenade over a fuel tank.
Guest
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Wiley-those are excellent points (along with your others), some of which are described in two different books, "Flying the Hump", which describe the very dangerous airlift over Burma and the Himalayas, in order to supply western China. Very interesting reading-the flying (world's highest mountains+worst weather+huge Burmese jungle) was as dangerous as in the European skies.
Sadly, many of the weapons and gasoline etc were not used against the foreign enemy, which was the ultimate objective.
Sadly, many of the weapons and gasoline etc were not used against the foreign enemy, which was the ultimate objective.
Guest
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KaptainKangaroo [quote] It's tough being the best I guess. [unquote]
Sure is. Please add to the follow list of Oscar winning performances:
Bombing range error in Kuwait; American sub sinks Jap tourist ship; two
F15s dent the Scottish scenery; Friendly (ha!) Fire in the Gulf Conflict
kills more British servicemen than the Iraqis [remember that old saying
'With America on our side, who needs enemies']; cruise missile
obliterates Chinese Embassy, supposedly (?) by mistake; Bulgaria zapped
by cruise missile in mistake for Serbian target ..... over many years the
list of American cock-ups has been long and seemingly endless. Why?
Mount a rescue mission, eh?. Couldn't even get that one right: how many
aircraft and men were lost in the Iranian desert?
As to handing out medals, why not? Instead of rotting in an Iranian
cell, the Captain of the USS Vincennes which shot down the Iran Air
Airbus was given a fat pension, a medal for aircraft recognition and now
enjoys a full life, something he denied to the innocent multi-national
passengers and crew of the civilian A300 on a regular scheduled flight
on a designated airway.
WINO
You've been watching too many Ronald Reagan movies
Favoured nation status? Perhaps Boeing will now have a few more empty
delivery positions as Chinese orders are switch elsewhere. Boeing
workers will sure thank George W for that.
SKYDRIFTER
I certainly would not trust any Red Cross worker. How do you think all
the 'accurate' GPS co-ordinates were obtained in Yugoslavia.
ROC
Perhaps another reason Europeans and others have a different attitude to
your way of thinking is that most of us disagree with your Government's
(of either party: they are all the same when in Power) rhetoric, blatant
arrogance, hypocrisy and economic greed. The US condemns (and even
bombs) Libya, but they happily import its oil, as long as the US gas
guzzling economy needs it.
The fact is American blunders of one kind or another happen all too
regularly, and we sure do enjoy hearing about them
God Bless America The entertainment capital of the world
Sure is. Please add to the follow list of Oscar winning performances:
Bombing range error in Kuwait; American sub sinks Jap tourist ship; two
F15s dent the Scottish scenery; Friendly (ha!) Fire in the Gulf Conflict
kills more British servicemen than the Iraqis [remember that old saying
'With America on our side, who needs enemies']; cruise missile
obliterates Chinese Embassy, supposedly (?) by mistake; Bulgaria zapped
by cruise missile in mistake for Serbian target ..... over many years the
list of American cock-ups has been long and seemingly endless. Why?
Mount a rescue mission, eh?. Couldn't even get that one right: how many
aircraft and men were lost in the Iranian desert?
As to handing out medals, why not? Instead of rotting in an Iranian
cell, the Captain of the USS Vincennes which shot down the Iran Air
Airbus was given a fat pension, a medal for aircraft recognition and now
enjoys a full life, something he denied to the innocent multi-national
passengers and crew of the civilian A300 on a regular scheduled flight
on a designated airway.
WINO
You've been watching too many Ronald Reagan movies
Favoured nation status? Perhaps Boeing will now have a few more empty
delivery positions as Chinese orders are switch elsewhere. Boeing
workers will sure thank George W for that.
SKYDRIFTER
I certainly would not trust any Red Cross worker. How do you think all
the 'accurate' GPS co-ordinates were obtained in Yugoslavia.
ROC
Perhaps another reason Europeans and others have a different attitude to
your way of thinking is that most of us disagree with your Government's
(of either party: they are all the same when in Power) rhetoric, blatant
arrogance, hypocrisy and economic greed. The US condemns (and even
bombs) Libya, but they happily import its oil, as long as the US gas
guzzling economy needs it.
The fact is American blunders of one kind or another happen all too
regularly, and we sure do enjoy hearing about them
God Bless America
The entertainment capital of the world
Guest
Posts: n/a
BOTTOMS UP -
It depresses me greatly to criticize the USA the way I do, but it's necessary to get the truth in perspective. Maybe, then, something might change. God know it desperately needs to. Granted, the U.S. doesn't have a monopoly on screwy politics and bungled events, but the guy in second place has a long way to catch up.
All these crashes of the U.S. military speak to drastic military non-preparedness; and a different sort of corruption, evidenced by the Osprey. Boeing will move to Dallas.
The U.S. is a culture obsessed with the syndrome of, "My personal power is greater than your personal power - or else." In general, Americans have no concept of results. Morality was outlawed, practically.
Go out on the Internet & look up "MPRI + Serbia," you'll see that Red Cross workers are the tip of the iceberg.
If the U.S. genuinely cared a damn about human rights, we'd have the greatest UN mission in history in Sierra Leone.
It's all for the American Dollar.
The crew on the aircraft have too little value, so the USA will negotiate. In the end, I suspect we'll get tough, but there will be a limit to it. If Bush apologized, Powell would walk in a flash. He's one of the few in the leadership worthy of respect. Glad he's on the job.
The treatment of the crew concerns me. The Chinese are not known for friendliness during interrogations.
I hope the U.S. at least comes to their senses on the topic of women in military threat environments. They are quite a liability right now.
It depresses me greatly to criticize the USA the way I do, but it's necessary to get the truth in perspective. Maybe, then, something might change. God know it desperately needs to. Granted, the U.S. doesn't have a monopoly on screwy politics and bungled events, but the guy in second place has a long way to catch up.
All these crashes of the U.S. military speak to drastic military non-preparedness; and a different sort of corruption, evidenced by the Osprey. Boeing will move to Dallas.
The U.S. is a culture obsessed with the syndrome of, "My personal power is greater than your personal power - or else." In general, Americans have no concept of results. Morality was outlawed, practically.
Go out on the Internet & look up "MPRI + Serbia," you'll see that Red Cross workers are the tip of the iceberg.
If the U.S. genuinely cared a damn about human rights, we'd have the greatest UN mission in history in Sierra Leone.
It's all for the American Dollar.
The crew on the aircraft have too little value, so the USA will negotiate. In the end, I suspect we'll get tough, but there will be a limit to it. If Bush apologized, Powell would walk in a flash. He's one of the few in the leadership worthy of respect. Glad he's on the job.
The treatment of the crew concerns me. The Chinese are not known for friendliness during interrogations.
I hope the U.S. at least comes to their senses on the topic of women in military threat environments. They are quite a liability right now.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Slasher, just to satisfy my curiosity, I got a question for you, seeing as how you're familiar with the neighbourhood so to speak. If the P3 was in the position shown when the intercept took place, how much farther was it to Haiphong? If I had my druthers, I think Viet Nam would have afforded a better welcome.
Guest
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If the crew remains hostage for an extended period of time, do you think the U.S. would risk a rescue mission? I mean it would seem pretty remote to me but if the public pressure builds who knows what could happen. And if there was one, surely it would be very difficult to pull out 24 people especially from a chinese airbase. I suppose that would be seen as an act of war by the US against China.?
Guest
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Angle of Attack,
Considering the number of US students in China [mostly Democrats I'd guess], the number of US business executives in China [mostly Republicans I'd guess], and the relative lack of Chinese citizens in the US who are not at least trying to get permanent residency, I find it unlikely that the US would be so stupid as to commit an act of war against China. But with the current crowd in Washington, I wouldn't put it beyond them.
[This message has been edited by Low_and_Slow (edited 06 April 2001).]
Considering the number of US students in China [mostly Democrats I'd guess], the number of US business executives in China [mostly Republicans I'd guess], and the relative lack of Chinese citizens in the US who are not at least trying to get permanent residency, I find it unlikely that the US would be so stupid as to commit an act of war against China. But with the current crowd in Washington, I wouldn't put it beyond them.
[This message has been edited by Low_and_Slow (edited 06 April 2001).]
Guest
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No one yet has remembered the poor people in Italy who lost their lives on the ski-lift because of the bad airmanship displayed by reckless aviators of the U.S.M.C. when one of their EA-6B Prowlers flew away too low and cut through the ski-lift cable wire killing so many innocent people. As I recall the crew involved were eventually not even court-martialed by the Pentagon for their actions. Some world's Policeman is the USA!
Guest
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Bottoms Up! and Tom the Tenor,
Nice list of Oscars. I'd like to nominate the gang-rape of a 12 year old Japanese girl, by three US Marines in 1995, at Okinawa. The lads followed their gang-rape by an incompetent attempt to murder their victim to cover their tracks. Unfortunately for them, the 'mostly deadly fighting unit in the world' failed to kill the 60 pound girl.
However, justice was 'seen' to be done: the chaps were sentenced to seven years for their crimes. They'll be back on the streets sometime during 2002.
Relevence to this thread? Please do not think that any of the US Services have a particularly good reputation in China, Hong Kong, Japan or even Korea. Quite the opposite. The Taiwanese are probably warming to them, though.
Nice list of Oscars. I'd like to nominate the gang-rape of a 12 year old Japanese girl, by three US Marines in 1995, at Okinawa. The lads followed their gang-rape by an incompetent attempt to murder their victim to cover their tracks. Unfortunately for them, the 'mostly deadly fighting unit in the world' failed to kill the 60 pound girl.
However, justice was 'seen' to be done: the chaps were sentenced to seven years for their crimes. They'll be back on the streets sometime during 2002.
Relevence to this thread? Please do not think that any of the US Services have a particularly good reputation in China, Hong Kong, Japan or even Korea. Quite the opposite. The Taiwanese are probably warming to them, though.
Guest
Posts: n/a
pigboat "If the P3 was in the position shown when the intercept took place"
There have been a number of occasions when missing US aircraft have been later proved not to have been where their owners originally reported them to be. Gary Powers was a long way from his first reported position and he was not returned all that quickly either. Further even if they were where the report says, Where were they previously?.
Lastly it took Maggie a week to get her Vulcan back from Rio and the landing fee was the confiscation of the unused missile and Brazil though neutral was a friendly power!
There have been a number of occasions when missing US aircraft have been later proved not to have been where their owners originally reported them to be. Gary Powers was a long way from his first reported position and he was not returned all that quickly either. Further even if they were where the report says, Where were they previously?.
Lastly it took Maggie a week to get her Vulcan back from Rio and the landing fee was the confiscation of the unused missile and Brazil though neutral was a friendly power!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I hate to be the one to say it, but.....
Shall we simmer down on the Yank-baiting just a tad, chaps?
The litany of shameful episodes (Bombing range error in Kuwait; American sub sinks Jap tourist ship; two
F15s dent the Scottish scenery; Friendly (ha!) Fire in the Gulf Conflict
kills more British servicemen than the Iraqis [remember that old saying
'With America on our side, who needs enemies']; cruise missile
obliterates Chinese Embassy, supposedly (?) by mistake; Bulgaria zapped by cruise missile in mistake for Serbian target, the poor people in Italy who lost their lives on the ski-lift because of the bad airmanship displayed by reckless aviators of the U.S.M.C.) is wearing a bit thin - every nation has rogue citizens, who do things which are a matter for shame and regret. US Marines in Okinawa - how about British Squaddies in Cyprus? Or how about Suez? Or how about our own friendly fire incidents? My point isn't that we Brits are just as bad, it's that this kind of micro detail is an irrelevant distraction.
I can see the appeal in having a bit of a laugh at the righteous (and hypocritical) indignation being expressed by Dubya over the non-return of the airplane, but let's not forget that its crew are being held hostage for conducting a legal, legitimate sigint mission in international waters. Moreover, that mission was flown by our closest ally against a totalitarian regime which has often been an enemy, and which is contemptuous of most of the values which we hold dear.
And for the whingeing Americans...
Espionage is a shabby game, and you must expect the rules to be broken. Your aeroplane was damaged by an accident, and not shot down (that's progress in this shadowy world) and the crew are alive. If China rips the EP-3E apart, keeps it, puts it in their aviation magazine, then I'm afraid that's just the way this game goes. But the crew, of course, should be released.
Shall we simmer down on the Yank-baiting just a tad, chaps?
The litany of shameful episodes (Bombing range error in Kuwait; American sub sinks Jap tourist ship; two
F15s dent the Scottish scenery; Friendly (ha!) Fire in the Gulf Conflict
kills more British servicemen than the Iraqis [remember that old saying
'With America on our side, who needs enemies']; cruise missile
obliterates Chinese Embassy, supposedly (?) by mistake; Bulgaria zapped by cruise missile in mistake for Serbian target, the poor people in Italy who lost their lives on the ski-lift because of the bad airmanship displayed by reckless aviators of the U.S.M.C.) is wearing a bit thin - every nation has rogue citizens, who do things which are a matter for shame and regret. US Marines in Okinawa - how about British Squaddies in Cyprus? Or how about Suez? Or how about our own friendly fire incidents? My point isn't that we Brits are just as bad, it's that this kind of micro detail is an irrelevant distraction.
I can see the appeal in having a bit of a laugh at the righteous (and hypocritical) indignation being expressed by Dubya over the non-return of the airplane, but let's not forget that its crew are being held hostage for conducting a legal, legitimate sigint mission in international waters. Moreover, that mission was flown by our closest ally against a totalitarian regime which has often been an enemy, and which is contemptuous of most of the values which we hold dear.
And for the whingeing Americans...
Espionage is a shabby game, and you must expect the rules to be broken. Your aeroplane was damaged by an accident, and not shot down (that's progress in this shadowy world) and the crew are alive. If China rips the EP-3E apart, keeps it, puts it in their aviation magazine, then I'm afraid that's just the way this game goes. But the crew, of course, should be released.
Guest
Posts: n/a
CHINESE PILOT SPEAKS OUT -
Looking at the video account of the surviving Chinese pilot's report brings a question to mind -
"How did the EP-3 manage to do that maneuver without lowering a wing?"
The damage to the trailing edge attests to the impact pattern - from the stern. That asumes that the EP-3 doesn't have the ability to go into reverse thrust in flight.
For my money, the Chinese have embarassed themselves, badly.
Maybe they took lessons from TWA-800.
1. The reddish traces of PETN (U.S. solid rocket motor fuel) are indicative of a bomb dog test conducted while the aircraft was headed to Honolulu.
2. The entry hole in the right front & exit hole on the left side are coincidence.
3. The supposed ignition source couldn't happen, as the fuel sensor temperature-compensating circuitry would burn out first. Only one of the fuel probes, out of eight, received the voltage.
4. Nearly two hundred witnesses to the missile must have been mistaken, having observed the CIA generated illusion.
5. Etc.
Looking at the video account of the surviving Chinese pilot's report brings a question to mind -
"How did the EP-3 manage to do that maneuver without lowering a wing?"
The damage to the trailing edge attests to the impact pattern - from the stern. That asumes that the EP-3 doesn't have the ability to go into reverse thrust in flight.
For my money, the Chinese have embarassed themselves, badly.
Maybe they took lessons from TWA-800.
1. The reddish traces of PETN (U.S. solid rocket motor fuel) are indicative of a bomb dog test conducted while the aircraft was headed to Honolulu.
2. The entry hole in the right front & exit hole on the left side are coincidence.
3. The supposed ignition source couldn't happen, as the fuel sensor temperature-compensating circuitry would burn out first. Only one of the fuel probes, out of eight, received the voltage.
4. Nearly two hundred witnesses to the missile must have been mistaken, having observed the CIA generated illusion.
5. Etc.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Can we also have a (dis)honourable mention for the crew member of the EA-6B who destroyed the evidence of their magic carpet ride.
Yes yank bashing is in vogue but when was it out of fashion? they give us good reason to be cynical, special mention for the CIA's involvement in Lockerbie (who doesnt believe they were up to their asses in that little mess, but luckly had enemy de jour to carry the can)
And by the way how many "up yer airbus" threads have been started and fuelled by our cousins over the years. do we take that as european bashing? (actualy we take that as froggie bashing -excuse my french which is somehow aceptable- why i dont know)
OK, 24 aircrew held thats bad, but these things happen and should continue to happen
and i'll tell you for why, 1st i would be absolutly totaly amazed if anything bad happens to them, but GWB now knows where china is and who leads it, and he also knows that they are not to be taken lightly and that servicemens lives are precious on all sides. maybe that will give him pause at sometime in the future.
which idiot suggested invading china? you sir, are you thinking of running for elected office on the end of the world ticket for that is surely what you will create. it is also exactly why sane people tend to take the p!ss out of yanks.
And while im on this rant you do know that there is a department in the pentagon devoted to misinformation dont you? (who doesnt think that there's a ppruner amongst them).
We can all think back to few incident where the facts officialy stated turned out not to be even adjacent to the truth eh... lets pick panama as nobodys mentioned that one up to now but from us brits we could also go belgrano, the list is long and illustrious from all sides of the politial spectrum.
sorry, i almost forgot "F16 pilot cleared of blame over collision" whos responsibility is it to avoid the accident?
Remember, never believe anything until its officialy denied oh, and if it comes to destroying evidence or classified information for god sake RTFI... fast!
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RTFI
[This message has been edited by RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo (edited 06 April 2001).]
Yes yank bashing is in vogue but when was it out of fashion? they give us good reason to be cynical, special mention for the CIA's involvement in Lockerbie (who doesnt believe they were up to their asses in that little mess, but luckly had enemy de jour to carry the can)
And by the way how many "up yer airbus" threads have been started and fuelled by our cousins over the years. do we take that as european bashing? (actualy we take that as froggie bashing -excuse my french
which is somehow aceptable- why i dont know)OK, 24 aircrew held thats bad, but these things happen and should continue to happen
and i'll tell you for why, 1st i would be absolutly totaly amazed if anything bad happens to them, but GWB now knows where china is and who leads it, and he also knows that they are not to be taken lightly and that servicemens lives are precious on all sides. maybe that will give him pause at sometime in the future. which idiot suggested invading china? you sir, are you thinking of running for elected office on the end of the world ticket for that is surely what you will create. it is also exactly why sane people tend to take the p!ss out of yanks.
And while im on this rant you do know that there is a department in the pentagon devoted to misinformation dont you? (who doesnt think that there's a ppruner amongst them).
We can all think back to few incident where the facts officialy stated turned out not to be even adjacent to the truth eh... lets pick panama as nobodys mentioned that one up to now but from us brits we could also go belgrano, the list is long and illustrious from all sides of the politial spectrum.
sorry, i almost forgot "F16 pilot cleared of blame over collision" whos responsibility is it to avoid the accident?
Remember, never believe anything until its officialy denied oh, and if it comes to destroying evidence or classified information for god sake RTFI... fast!
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RTFI
[This message has been edited by RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo (edited 06 April 2001).]