U.S. Navy EP-3 forced down by Chinese
Guest
Posts: n/a
I can't see why they should release the aircrew straight away.
If any of us just dropped into a military airfield even in our own country I bet they'd have quite a few questions, let alone a foreign country in a spy plane after an arranged intercept.
I think they are quite within their rights to pull it apart. After all, customs can do it at the drop of a hat looking for drugs. If the a/c really is that sensitive, and they obviously had enough control to direct and land it safely at an airfield, they really should have ditched it or had a little explosive device to send it into a million very small pieces immediately after landing and evacuating!
This new US administration in the few months since inception has managed to nark both the Russians and now the Chinese too. Not really very bright is it, just to keep a few right-wing Rednecks happy! Playing dangerous games for the sake of ego!
If any of us just dropped into a military airfield even in our own country I bet they'd have quite a few questions, let alone a foreign country in a spy plane after an arranged intercept.
I think they are quite within their rights to pull it apart. After all, customs can do it at the drop of a hat looking for drugs. If the a/c really is that sensitive, and they obviously had enough control to direct and land it safely at an airfield, they really should have ditched it or had a little explosive device to send it into a million very small pieces immediately after landing and evacuating!
This new US administration in the few months since inception has managed to nark both the Russians and now the Chinese too. Not really very bright is it, just to keep a few right-wing Rednecks happy! Playing dangerous games for the sake of ego!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Those of you who thought that George Orwell's '1984' view of the world passed us all by without happening should take a good look at the 'Peoples Republic' of China of today. I believe the Americans are now seeing what the Chinese government and military are really like.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The reason they can't board the aircraft is International Law, which the Chinese are clearly breaking. There are also internationally agreed rules, regarding intercepts, and similar events, to try to avoid this sort of situation arising.
Customs can take your car apart when you arrive at Dover docks, returning from France, because that is covered entirly by British law. Aircraft are different, as they remain soverign territory of the country in which they are registered. However, if China want to ignore international law in this case, they way they ignore human rights issues, it will be almost impossible to stop them.
What the US can do, is withhold any foreign aid that me be due to them, withdraw investment, counter their olympic bid etc etc, or bribe them, by reducing their planned arms sales to Taiwan.
Customs can take your car apart when you arrive at Dover docks, returning from France, because that is covered entirly by British law. Aircraft are different, as they remain soverign territory of the country in which they are registered. However, if China want to ignore international law in this case, they way they ignore human rights issues, it will be almost impossible to stop them.
What the US can do, is withhold any foreign aid that me be due to them, withdraw investment, counter their olympic bid etc etc, or bribe them, by reducing their planned arms sales to Taiwan.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Going around & around, they didn't just drop in as you say. They had a serious emergency and were well within their rights under international law to land at the nearest suitable piece of concrete. China under obligation from international law has to allow them to land and treat the crew properly.
China and the US are not yet at war, but the holding of a military crew and their aeroplane against their will could surely be seen as provocation towards war. This has some way to go yet.
China and the US are not yet at war, but the holding of a military crew and their aeroplane against their will could surely be seen as provocation towards war. This has some way to go yet.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: ASIA
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And not so long ago, when a Mig pilot defected to the states and took his airplane with him, did we "respect the soveriegn integrity of the Mig?" Did we hell. The Chinese have every right, established by our own precedent to rip the thing apart .... unfortunately.
Guest
Posts: n/a
cowpat
While they don't have the "right" to rip the aircraft apart. They will. It is how enemies treat each other. I guess that is what they want to be.
What they most certainly do NOT have the right to do is incarcerate that crew of 24 (including 3 women btw).
We should have invaded Korea over the PUEBLO, but were distracted by Vietnam. While I don't advocate invading China over this, I see no reason to continue trade or diplomatic relations. I also think it is high time we stopped giving the cold shoulder to Taiwan and it is time to treat Taiwan like the democratic ally that they are and stop appeasing the chinese.
Cheers
Wino
While they don't have the "right" to rip the aircraft apart. They will. It is how enemies treat each other. I guess that is what they want to be.
What they most certainly do NOT have the right to do is incarcerate that crew of 24 (including 3 women btw).
We should have invaded Korea over the PUEBLO, but were distracted by Vietnam. While I don't advocate invading China over this, I see no reason to continue trade or diplomatic relations. I also think it is high time we stopped giving the cold shoulder to Taiwan and it is time to treat Taiwan like the democratic ally that they are and stop appeasing the chinese.
Cheers
Wino
Guest
Posts: n/a
SACRED TERRITORY -
The bottom line is that this was an emergency, period, end of sentence.
That's like China insisting on the right to detain and cavity-search Red Cross workers coming to the rescue of earthquake victims.
Given Clinton's 'give-'em-anything' policy, I hope we starve the bastards.
Unfortunately, this might be China's way of nailing the U.S. before we can recover from the Clinton military strip-down.
Good test of Bush, however.
The bottom line is that this was an emergency, period, end of sentence.
That's like China insisting on the right to detain and cavity-search Red Cross workers coming to the rescue of earthquake victims.
Given Clinton's 'give-'em-anything' policy, I hope we starve the bastards.
Unfortunately, this might be China's way of nailing the U.S. before we can recover from the Clinton military strip-down.
Good test of Bush, however.
Guest
Posts: n/a
One of Many,
I was commenting on your thinly veiled enjoyment that Uncle Sam has egg on his face, If you did what you say you did for 24 years, then why such glee concerning this incident? Like another reader stated in another thread, I find the amount of anti-Americanism on Pprune an eye-opener!! I can handle the heat, I've handled it in places like Panama,Iraq etc...its just I don't understand the attitudes on this site...Americans hardly ever harbor ill will against Europe, but it seems like a hobby for you guys...
I was commenting on your thinly veiled enjoyment that Uncle Sam has egg on his face, If you did what you say you did for 24 years, then why such glee concerning this incident? Like another reader stated in another thread, I find the amount of anti-Americanism on Pprune an eye-opener!! I can handle the heat, I've handled it in places like Panama,Iraq etc...its just I don't understand the attitudes on this site...Americans hardly ever harbor ill will against Europe, but it seems like a hobby for you guys...
Guest
Posts: n/a
Roc,
Might I offer one (slightly drunk!) European's perspective?
You have a point with your 'Anti-American' accusation - we Europeans must sometimes appear to be just that. Maybe it's because we admire the USA so much - that because we embrace your culture, shelter under a largely US military umbrella, and admire your many achievements when you fall short of perfection, we are more disappointed than we should be.
Thus occasional redneck attitudes and brinkmanship in a nation which invented democracy and has striven for peace and harmony may be bound to stir up hostility and criticism. Similarly, episodes like 'Shrub's' rejection of Kyoto (you account for 25% of emissions) are hard to take from a nation which has produced the main thinkers on the environment.
Add to this a quite natural envy of your economic success, and some friction is inevitable.
And I do think that sometimes its in the American national character to be a little thin-skinned, and to expect unqualified gratitude and admiration.
But it's like very close relatives or a long-standing marriage. Maybe you don't say good things often enough, and maybe you get irritated more than you would with strangers, but underneath it, the relationship remains strong, vital, and I hope enduring.
PS: I'm sure that even many American's must be unhappy at having Shrub in the White House, and scared by his actions, or just his sheer inexperience. Criticising the far right in the USA doesn't make anyone Un-American or Anti-American - it can never be "My Government Right or Wrong" surely?
[This message has been edited by Jackonicko (edited 04 April 2001).]
Might I offer one (slightly drunk!) European's perspective?
You have a point with your 'Anti-American' accusation - we Europeans must sometimes appear to be just that. Maybe it's because we admire the USA so much - that because we embrace your culture, shelter under a largely US military umbrella, and admire your many achievements when you fall short of perfection, we are more disappointed than we should be.
Thus occasional redneck attitudes and brinkmanship in a nation which invented democracy and has striven for peace and harmony may be bound to stir up hostility and criticism. Similarly, episodes like 'Shrub's' rejection of Kyoto (you account for 25% of emissions) are hard to take from a nation which has produced the main thinkers on the environment.
Add to this a quite natural envy of your economic success, and some friction is inevitable.
And I do think that sometimes its in the American national character to be a little thin-skinned, and to expect unqualified gratitude and admiration.
But it's like very close relatives or a long-standing marriage. Maybe you don't say good things often enough, and maybe you get irritated more than you would with strangers, but underneath it, the relationship remains strong, vital, and I hope enduring.
PS: I'm sure that even many American's must be unhappy at having Shrub in the White House, and scared by his actions, or just his sheer inexperience. Criticising the far right in the USA doesn't make anyone Un-American or Anti-American - it can never be "My Government Right or Wrong" surely?
[This message has been edited by Jackonicko (edited 04 April 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Drop and Stop,
Thanks for the pix. According to the DOD one prop is supposed to be completely off. Is that the one hidden behind the front view of the plane? The radar dome in front seems to be dismantled. It is hard to imagine that it was sheered off by the collision in such a clean manner.
HotDog,
The radar information, I believe, cam from the Straits Times two days ago. I don't know if they have it in their archives today.
Roc,
Generally, I believe some of the people are giving the U.S. a pretty hard ride over this incident, especially concerning George W. Clinton may have been a sleeze bag who didn't know where Bosnia was when he came to office and learned that there was a Europe two years later, but in this case, what is the U.S. supposed to do -- cave in because of some meglomaniacal Chinese statements?
I've been there. Two and a half years in the USSR at that time and this kind of vomit that the Chinese are spewing at the West (tomorrow's flight might be a U.K. mission) is completely unacceptable. I actually wonder how Bush manages to keep his cool.
Of course, the plane, from the moment it landed, was a total write-off. DOD knew this and so did NSA. The "sovereignity" issue was just bunk, but someone had to say something in spite of the Chinese.
This whole thing is not going well at all.
Thanks for the pix. According to the DOD one prop is supposed to be completely off. Is that the one hidden behind the front view of the plane? The radar dome in front seems to be dismantled. It is hard to imagine that it was sheered off by the collision in such a clean manner.
HotDog,
The radar information, I believe, cam from the Straits Times two days ago. I don't know if they have it in their archives today.
Roc,
Generally, I believe some of the people are giving the U.S. a pretty hard ride over this incident, especially concerning George W. Clinton may have been a sleeze bag who didn't know where Bosnia was when he came to office and learned that there was a Europe two years later, but in this case, what is the U.S. supposed to do -- cave in because of some meglomaniacal Chinese statements?
I've been there. Two and a half years in the USSR at that time and this kind of vomit that the Chinese are spewing at the West (tomorrow's flight might be a U.K. mission) is completely unacceptable. I actually wonder how Bush manages to keep his cool.
Of course, the plane, from the moment it landed, was a total write-off. DOD knew this and so did NSA. The "sovereignity" issue was just bunk, but someone had to say something in spite of the Chinese.
This whole thing is not going well at all.
Guest
Posts: n/a
HotDog,
Try the www.taipeitimes.com for the radar info. However, today they are saying that, indeed, a Chinese pilot went down. Dont't have much from this side.
Try the www.taipeitimes.com for the radar info. However, today they are saying that, indeed, a Chinese pilot went down. Dont't have much from this side.
Guest
Posts: n/a
No-one has answered Ramp Vans previous question - why didn't they ditch rather than land in "enemy" territory? I would hazard a guess that ditching an EP-3 wouldn't be as hazardous as a modern jet (lower stall speed? no engines hung under the wings?). And presumably most of the crew could have bailed out first?
It really is a tough one for such a new administration. And for all those that are knocking Bush, what do you think Gore would have done?
------------------
Feline
(I Sit, I Watch, I Smile)
It really is a tough one for such a new administration. And for all those that are knocking Bush, what do you think Gore would have done?
------------------
Feline
(I Sit, I Watch, I Smile)
Guest
Posts: n/a
You might care to get a map out and check out the populations of cartilaginous fish down there before you make bright comment like that - aside from a Captains responsibility to his crew etc etc.
The likelyhood is that most of the boards and processors are standard (indeed who knows, made in China?), and that all the software will have been uninstalled after a data flush, and I guess the rest of the cold coffee will have been used to wash over the processor boards!.
[This message has been edited by Reheat On (edited 04 April 2001).]
The likelyhood is that most of the boards and processors are standard (indeed who knows, made in China?), and that all the software will have been uninstalled after a data flush, and I guess the rest of the cold coffee will have been used to wash over the processor boards!.
[This message has been edited by Reheat On (edited 04 April 2001).]