U.S. Navy EP-3 forced down by Chinese
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Hi KK
I'm not envious of the Americans, I used to work with some of their Finest tactitians in the world. As for being the best I'll settle for being numerically superior. I hope the USA get back there 24 crew and their aircraft. I just hope Cheney and Powell keep their boss at arms length. I do not belive the Chinese will miss the opportunity to give the Orion (sorry Aires II)a good look over.
regards to all
wide
[This message has been edited by Wide-Body (edited 03 April 2001).]
I'm not envious of the Americans, I used to work with some of their Finest tactitians in the world. As for being the best I'll settle for being numerically superior. I hope the USA get back there 24 crew and their aircraft. I just hope Cheney and Powell keep their boss at arms length. I do not belive the Chinese will miss the opportunity to give the Orion (sorry Aires II)a good look over.
regards to all
wide
[This message has been edited by Wide-Body (edited 03 April 2001).]
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REALITY CHECK -
I was raised next to a DEW Line fighter base. All are correct on the can-and-mouse-aircraft spy games. The aircraft actually shot down are still highly secret, but there is no reason to think that there were not losses.
In contrast, that was the infamous 'cold war;' we didn't have Russia as a 'most favored' trading partner.
I'll bet Clinton could make a couple of phone calls & get aircraft & crew released; they owe him - big time. Or; is the other way around? {:-))
I was raised next to a DEW Line fighter base. All are correct on the can-and-mouse-aircraft spy games. The aircraft actually shot down are still highly secret, but there is no reason to think that there were not losses.
In contrast, that was the infamous 'cold war;' we didn't have Russia as a 'most favored' trading partner.
I'll bet Clinton could make a couple of phone calls & get aircraft & crew released; they owe him - big time. Or; is the other way around? {:-))
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Good job it wasn't an RC-135!
The EP-3E is at least less sensitive than that.
Despite being a Brit, I'm sad to see the loss, but have to say that when the roles have been reversed, Eastern Bloc aircraft have been fair game for examination and even dismantling (read the account of the Firebar which went down in Lake Havel in Wright's Spycatcher, let alone the MiG-25 in Japan!). If the EP-3E is handed back at all, it will only be after its equipment has been minutely examined (quite possibly by China's allies) and in the warped code of etiquette that surrounds the aerial espionage game, that's fair enough, and the US Govt and people should stop whining about it.
What is disgraceful, and what goes against the rules is the continued use of the crew as hostages, and I have every sympathy for every American who has been angered by their treatment. I hope they're home soon.
The EP-3E is at least less sensitive than that.
Despite being a Brit, I'm sad to see the loss, but have to say that when the roles have been reversed, Eastern Bloc aircraft have been fair game for examination and even dismantling (read the account of the Firebar which went down in Lake Havel in Wright's Spycatcher, let alone the MiG-25 in Japan!). If the EP-3E is handed back at all, it will only be after its equipment has been minutely examined (quite possibly by China's allies) and in the warped code of etiquette that surrounds the aerial espionage game, that's fair enough, and the US Govt and people should stop whining about it.
What is disgraceful, and what goes against the rules is the continued use of the crew as hostages, and I have every sympathy for every American who has been angered by their treatment. I hope they're home soon.
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Considering the aggresive intercepts, as reported by the DOD in the weeks before this sad accident, maybe it was a matter of time before an inexperienced or over-aggressive Chinese pilot would make a mistake and possibly misjudge his closure rate.
Don't believe I've done formation flying at night. It might be a bit risky to aggresively approach another aircraft at night, is it not? Is it very possible that the EP-3 made a gentle turn into the other plane, in order to turn further away from hostile airspace, maybe not being aware of it in the darkness?
Do Chinese and other interceptor jets keep their position and beacon lights on during intercepts with suspicious aircraft? On airliners these are mostly red and green lights? We switch on nacele and floodlights below 10,000' and these are white. A few of the planes in a specific fleet type here have white strobe lights. Were any crewmembers required to stare out a window for any approaching fighters? Whether that was the case or not, then smoothly rolling into a 20 degree bank into the (unseen, dark) the F-8 fighter could produce a collision? Or is this very unlikely?
Would any tactical jet pilots care to comment? Former Pres. Clinton might have punished the Navy EP-3 Squadron CO and Wing Commander for having angered his Chinese buddies.
Don't believe I've done formation flying at night. It might be a bit risky to aggresively approach another aircraft at night, is it not? Is it very possible that the EP-3 made a gentle turn into the other plane, in order to turn further away from hostile airspace, maybe not being aware of it in the darkness?
Do Chinese and other interceptor jets keep their position and beacon lights on during intercepts with suspicious aircraft? On airliners these are mostly red and green lights? We switch on nacele and floodlights below 10,000' and these are white. A few of the planes in a specific fleet type here have white strobe lights. Were any crewmembers required to stare out a window for any approaching fighters? Whether that was the case or not, then smoothly rolling into a 20 degree bank into the (unseen, dark) the F-8 fighter could produce a collision? Or is this very unlikely?
Would any tactical jet pilots care to comment? Former Pres. Clinton might have punished the Navy EP-3 Squadron CO and Wing Commander for having angered his Chinese buddies.
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Many posts have mentioned the incidents where Soviet crews defected with their aircraft and compared them with this situation. Interesting, an aircrew flying in International airspace is intercepted, apparently rammed, forced down against their will and somehow this is the same? The word piracy seems to fit this situation well.
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INTERNATIONAL COURTESY -
The reality is that there is no way China could determine the factual case, in the given time frame, if the P-3 HAD tried to cause the collision. Radar isn't that good & the injured pilot would have been too busy to account, while the first aircraft couldn't have seen the event. Thus, the rhetoric & propaganda are evident, but expected.
It is clear, however that the P-3 didn't have the airspeed to have achieved the damage against the fighter, if it had been either an accidental or deliberate act on his part.
Therefore, it is appropriate to honor the emergency nature of the event & let the aircraft & crew go.
If the reports of increasingly close intercepts are true, there is a certain amount of egg on the Navy's part for continuing to send aircraft into a known threat arena, unescorted.
Given China's increasing missile capability, there may be a legitimate need for the intelligence gathering.
The reality is that there is no way China could determine the factual case, in the given time frame, if the P-3 HAD tried to cause the collision. Radar isn't that good & the injured pilot would have been too busy to account, while the first aircraft couldn't have seen the event. Thus, the rhetoric & propaganda are evident, but expected.
It is clear, however that the P-3 didn't have the airspeed to have achieved the damage against the fighter, if it had been either an accidental or deliberate act on his part.
Therefore, it is appropriate to honor the emergency nature of the event & let the aircraft & crew go.
If the reports of increasingly close intercepts are true, there is a certain amount of egg on the Navy's part for continuing to send aircraft into a known threat arena, unescorted.
Given China's increasing missile capability, there may be a legitimate need for the intelligence gathering.
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Ignition Override, unless you're formating on something with bright electroluminescent strip lights or similar, night form can be pretty hairy - quite difficult to judge closure rates, and easy to end up dangerously out of position if you're not on the ball. Certainly not the place for aggressive flying!
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Completely concur Mr H.
Night intercepts and VIDs can be quite testing on a black night with no horizon and a bit of IMC around. Likely as not everyone would have been flying around with lights off just to make it difficult for the other side!
Even with the use of radar and a good HUD the manoeuvre can be very disorientating and requires a high degree of concentration.
ES
------------------
Sleep after toil,
Port after stormy seas,
Ease after war,
Death after life does greatly please.
Night intercepts and VIDs can be quite testing on a black night with no horizon and a bit of IMC around. Likely as not everyone would have been flying around with lights off just to make it difficult for the other side!
Even with the use of radar and a good HUD the manoeuvre can be very disorientating and requires a high degree of concentration.
ES
------------------
Sleep after toil,
Port after stormy seas,
Ease after war,
Death after life does greatly please.
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While I acknowledge that the chinese will look over what is left of the aircraft in minute detail, and may not even give it back, that is how the game is played. (Usually with an enemy, though, not a most favored nation. But apparently the chinese want to be considered an enemy) I do not think that a delay of even 1 second in releasing the crew was acceptable. Holding the crew hostage is a such an outrage, I can't even begin to describe it.
As a result, We should instantly recognize Taiwan and sell em whatever they want. No holding back.
Cheers
Wino
As a result, We should instantly recognize Taiwan and sell em whatever they want. No holding back.
Cheers
Wino
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And so it is definitely true that the collision happened at night, or sometime between sunset and sunrise?
As a possible background for over-aggressive fighter pilots, today's April 3rd "Wall Street Journal" has an interesting article about the factions, nationalistic and others, struggling for future control over the Red Chinese government. At least one strong faction supposedly prefers aggresive military tactics towards any strong foreign influences in East Asia.
Are there pilots out in PpruneLand who actually believe that an EP-3 or any other derivative of an airline design (the Lockheed L-188, "Electra) can be very maneuverable, compared to a fighter?! Who could be so ignorant?
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 04 April 2001).]
As a possible background for over-aggressive fighter pilots, today's April 3rd "Wall Street Journal" has an interesting article about the factions, nationalistic and others, struggling for future control over the Red Chinese government. At least one strong faction supposedly prefers aggresive military tactics towards any strong foreign influences in East Asia.
Are there pilots out in PpruneLand who actually believe that an EP-3 or any other derivative of an airline design (the Lockheed L-188, "Electra) can be very maneuverable, compared to a fighter?! Who could be so ignorant?
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 04 April 2001).]
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>>I'll bet Clinton could make a couple of phone calls & get aircraft & crew released; they owe him - big time. Or; is the other way around? {:-))<<
Correction: Those secrets that he sold for soft campaign contributions were paid for by U.S. tax payers, so they owe us big time.
In light of recent agressive intercepts, somebody screwed the pooch for sending these guys out unescorted.
Not immediately releasing our crewmembers is an unforgivable sin. I think a reasonable rescue mission with a few aircraft carriers off the coast of Hainan and a half-dozen loaded B52s overhead China might influence them to let our people go. Afterwards, we should end trade with the bastards. (I'm sure we can buy slinkies and rubber dog shlt from somebody else for just pennies more)
We will soon see if Bush has the balls to force them to give up the hostages or if he's gonna let other countries push us around as our most recent presidents have. How long would we wait to do something if a politician's son or daughter were one of these crewmembers?
Correction: Those secrets that he sold for soft campaign contributions were paid for by U.S. tax payers, so they owe us big time.
In light of recent agressive intercepts, somebody screwed the pooch for sending these guys out unescorted.
Not immediately releasing our crewmembers is an unforgivable sin. I think a reasonable rescue mission with a few aircraft carriers off the coast of Hainan and a half-dozen loaded B52s overhead China might influence them to let our people go. Afterwards, we should end trade with the bastards. (I'm sure we can buy slinkies and rubber dog shlt from somebody else for just pennies more)
We will soon see if Bush has the balls to force them to give up the hostages or if he's gonna let other countries push us around as our most recent presidents have. How long would we wait to do something if a politician's son or daughter were one of these crewmembers?
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The word filtering out (from a Jane's Defence internal source) is that they ditched the crypto books, prayerwheels, handhelds but were unable to dump or destroy any significant amount of the more sensitive hardware (a de-racking problemo)due to short time available. Mission-stored data was deleted but programs were not. With two engines out on one side I guess they weren't too keen on slowing and opening the cabin door either.
