U.S. Navy EP-3 forced down by Chinese
Guest
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Lets cut off trade with the Chinese effective immediately. If they want it back, they give our crewmembers back and we'll think about resuming based on their prompt concessions. A lasting trade embargo would put a huge dent in their military budget. As an U.S. citizen, I'm tired of "turning the other cheek", it's time to kick someone in the nuts.
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RA
I agree hit the Chinese where it hurts, they are also very sensitive over the human rights issue (probably because the average Chinese citizen does not have many rights).
It would reduce the chances of them getting the 2008 Olympics.
During the Korean and Vietnam wars there are many reports of US aircrew being transported to China, these brave men never came back.
I agree hit the Chinese where it hurts, they are also very sensitive over the human rights issue (probably because the average Chinese citizen does not have many rights).
It would reduce the chances of them getting the 2008 Olympics.
During the Korean and Vietnam wars there are many reports of US aircrew being transported to China, these brave men never came back.
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Ignition Override
Thanks, at least you can see what I meant. This sort of work is sadly, necessary.
If they want the crew home AND what remains of the aircraft, the most expeditious way is apologize, say what it takes.
THEN carry on with what you were going to do anyway.
Isn't this a plot in a Tom Clancy novel?
As for Jesse Jackson, is he in need of a BJ from a Chinese girl now then?
Thanks, at least you can see what I meant. This sort of work is sadly, necessary.
If they want the crew home AND what remains of the aircraft, the most expeditious way is apologize, say what it takes.
THEN carry on with what you were going to do anyway.
Isn't this a plot in a Tom Clancy novel?
As for Jesse Jackson, is he in need of a BJ from a Chinese girl now then?
Guest
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I like Carthorse's pictures, and would have no reason to disbelieve their very recent origin, but for the fact that they show two aircraft, but with three serial numbers: 1097, 1192, 1196. Two (or more)intercepts on the same sortie? Or just taken from the J8 archive to make a point?
Guest
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Splendid news (if true) from the BBC.
The US air crew detained in China are to be released, Chinese state media has said.
A statement read on television and radio said the Americans would be released as soon as "appropriate travel procedures were completed".
On Tuesday, both sides in the spy plane dispute appeared to be edging towards resolution of the dispute.
US State Department officials said that in a draft document offered to Beijing, the US expresses regret for landing on Chinese soil without permission. The letter also regrets for the loss of the Chinese pilot who collided with the US plane.
Meanwhile, China's state-run media began reporting comments made by US Secretary of State Colin Powell three days ago, in which he expresses sorrow for last week's collision of a US spy plane and a Chinese fighter.
Preparing public opinion
The media reporting, correspondents say, was preparing public opinion for an announcement that a deal to return the crew of the US spy plane has been reached.
The two sides had been locked in a diplomatic deadlock for more than 10 days, with Washington refusing to meet Beijing demands for an apology.
Chinese pilot Wang Wei has been lionised by the state media
The 24 crew members and the US surveillance plane are being held on the Chinese island of Hainan.
On Tuesday, Chinese President Jiang Zemin expressed confidence that an agreement could be reached with the US to end the dispute.
"I trust in the ability of both countries to resolve this issue," said Jiang, who is on a six-nation tour of Latin America.
US officials have refused to apologise outright because they do not believe the collision was their fault. The US also maintains that the accident occurred in international airspace.
Sense of outrage
Correspondents say the precise wording, and the extent of regret, offered by the US in writing was crucial because Chinese leaders needed something to show the public, whose sense of outrage over the incident has been heightened by anti-US rhetoric in state media.
They also say Chinese officials appear to be preparing to announce the death of the missing airman, Wang Wei.
The announcement of the pilot's death and the abandonment of a massive search for him is being seen as a vital part of bringing this dispute towards a conclusion.
State media have lionized the pilot, Wang Wei, as a patriot who crashed defending his country. Reports say more than 1,000 military and civilian vessels have joined the search for him.
Now question is did they arrive with their passports
The US air crew detained in China are to be released, Chinese state media has said.
A statement read on television and radio said the Americans would be released as soon as "appropriate travel procedures were completed".
On Tuesday, both sides in the spy plane dispute appeared to be edging towards resolution of the dispute.
US State Department officials said that in a draft document offered to Beijing, the US expresses regret for landing on Chinese soil without permission. The letter also regrets for the loss of the Chinese pilot who collided with the US plane.
Meanwhile, China's state-run media began reporting comments made by US Secretary of State Colin Powell three days ago, in which he expresses sorrow for last week's collision of a US spy plane and a Chinese fighter.
Preparing public opinion
The media reporting, correspondents say, was preparing public opinion for an announcement that a deal to return the crew of the US spy plane has been reached.
The two sides had been locked in a diplomatic deadlock for more than 10 days, with Washington refusing to meet Beijing demands for an apology.
Chinese pilot Wang Wei has been lionised by the state media
The 24 crew members and the US surveillance plane are being held on the Chinese island of Hainan.
On Tuesday, Chinese President Jiang Zemin expressed confidence that an agreement could be reached with the US to end the dispute.
"I trust in the ability of both countries to resolve this issue," said Jiang, who is on a six-nation tour of Latin America.
US officials have refused to apologise outright because they do not believe the collision was their fault. The US also maintains that the accident occurred in international airspace.
Sense of outrage
Correspondents say the precise wording, and the extent of regret, offered by the US in writing was crucial because Chinese leaders needed something to show the public, whose sense of outrage over the incident has been heightened by anti-US rhetoric in state media.
They also say Chinese officials appear to be preparing to announce the death of the missing airman, Wang Wei.
The announcement of the pilot's death and the abandonment of a massive search for him is being seen as a vital part of bringing this dispute towards a conclusion.
State media have lionized the pilot, Wang Wei, as a patriot who crashed defending his country. Reports say more than 1,000 military and civilian vessels have joined the search for him.
Now question is did they arrive with their passports
Guest
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Just a theory/thought, I wonder if all this is about China 'testing' the resolve of the US government and public opinion, with a view to their future plans for annexing Taiwan.
If the US are seen to be compliant/soft on this aircraft issue what chance for Taiwan.
If the US are seen to be compliant/soft on this aircraft issue what chance for Taiwan.
Guest
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CNN reports that the Chinese Foreign Ministry has just announced that the 24-member crew are to be released as soon as travel logistics are completed.
The Foreign Ministry, CNN says, sees this as a "humanitarian" gesture and also because the U.S. has said it is "very sorry." It didn't mention sorry about what.
The Foreign Ministry, CNN says, sees this as a "humanitarian" gesture and also because the U.S. has said it is "very sorry." It didn't mention sorry about what.
Guest
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Good pic at the following:
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/milit...at_image.shtml
PS:
Sorry in advance if this is old hat or repeat posting..
Guest
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Great News-
Not wanting to stoke up any resentment here, but I personally don't see this "very sorry" gesture as an actual apology;
Rather, they are sorry to the CHINESE PEOPLE for the mess that this unfortunate incident has caused.
I don't think the "sorry" was an admission of guilt on the US side though, as they still do not acknowledge that they were in the wrong.
Still, it was good enough for the Bosses in Beijing, so jolly good!
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Good Morning Buenos Aires
Not wanting to stoke up any resentment here, but I personally don't see this "very sorry" gesture as an actual apology;
Rather, they are sorry to the CHINESE PEOPLE for the mess that this unfortunate incident has caused.
I don't think the "sorry" was an admission of guilt on the US side though, as they still do not acknowledge that they were in the wrong.
Still, it was good enough for the Bosses in Beijing, so jolly good!
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Good Morning Buenos Aires
Guest
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IT WILL BE INTERESTING -
There's no telling what deal was made in the back room, however, the facts would be interesting if they are ever permitted to be told. Glad to hear they are coming home. Now to see what happens to the aircraft.
THIN ALBERT - Do you find justice in child molestations, also??
There's no telling what deal was made in the back room, however, the facts would be interesting if they are ever permitted to be told. Glad to hear they are coming home. Now to see what happens to the aircraft.
THIN ALBERT - Do you find justice in child molestations, also??
Guest
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Bunyip,
"George senior managed to steal stalemate from the jaws of victory"
This thinking is quite popular, and alot of people believe we should have marched all the way to Baghdad, However, as one who flew during Desert Storm I disagree. First, at least here in the US alot of people were against the war, I heard about it being another Vietnam, Boddy bags would be coming home by the thousands etc etc....So, Politically if ONE single US soldier had died marching to Baghdad, his grieving Mother would be plastered on every TV and Newspaper in America. All the Anti-war forces would decry "why are we fighting in Iraq, when our ststed purpose was to free Kuwait?" etc etc ......I personally feel Bush Sr. was right, because I believe that whoever replaces Saddam, will not be much different anyway....And the Ass-whipping his pathetic armed forces took was lesson enough.
"George senior managed to steal stalemate from the jaws of victory"
This thinking is quite popular, and alot of people believe we should have marched all the way to Baghdad, However, as one who flew during Desert Storm I disagree. First, at least here in the US alot of people were against the war, I heard about it being another Vietnam, Boddy bags would be coming home by the thousands etc etc....So, Politically if ONE single US soldier had died marching to Baghdad, his grieving Mother would be plastered on every TV and Newspaper in America. All the Anti-war forces would decry "why are we fighting in Iraq, when our ststed purpose was to free Kuwait?" etc etc ......I personally feel Bush Sr. was right, because I believe that whoever replaces Saddam, will not be much different anyway....And the Ass-whipping his pathetic armed forces took was lesson enough.
Guest
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INTERESTING TIMING -
"Preparations for the release appeared to begin before sunrise Thursday. At 5:45 a.m., a convoy of two minivans and several cars pulled out of the military guest house where the crew have been held and arrived at the airport at Haikou, the capital of southern Hainan island.
Moments earlier, a Continental Airlines plane landed and taxied to a remote part of the tarmac, hundreds of yards from the terminal. Security guards stopped civilians from nearing the area."
A 737-800, at that.
"Preparations for the release appeared to begin before sunrise Thursday. At 5:45 a.m., a convoy of two minivans and several cars pulled out of the military guest house where the crew have been held and arrived at the airport at Haikou, the capital of southern Hainan island.
Moments earlier, a Continental Airlines plane landed and taxied to a remote part of the tarmac, hundreds of yards from the terminal. Security guards stopped civilians from nearing the area."
A 737-800, at that.
Guest
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Sure, Roc, you were there. I was flying past in a civilian 747 (it seemed to be over that quick). The point of the criticism from many of us is that the "war" was being prosecuted very well, and looked like it would be as clean and quick as it could be, and worth the loss of life and money it cost. Don't forget that Iraq had escalated the war by attacking Israel and Saudi Arabia and it was not just a matter of tossing them out of Kuwait, as the apologists now claim it was. It was a war that was presented to the world in real time on TV and even after the event there did not appear to be any other agenda than the one given, which was to make Iraq unable to threaten its neighbours, and to destroy its weapons of mass destruction. Forcing them out of Kuwait was only the first step.
And, in a now typical US move, the war was taken over by the politicians and utterly corrupted. As it turns out, it would be safe to say that Saddam not only got a stalemate, he got a victory. Leaving Saddam free to re-build, with the major part of his army intact, made the loss of life, civilian as well as military and on both sides, pointless.
Just as the Chinese are indoctrinated by their own propaganda, so are the Americans (my father in law is a Kansas farmer and he believes everything CNN tells him to believe. In my experience, typical behaviour. And don't start me on what California teaches my kids in school!). We are upset when Japan changes history in its school text books, but don't care when the US does the same. Go figure...
I just hope that this is not the end of it, since the Chinese will now feel free to rule the South China Sea, and its neighbours, with force. If they could make the world's only super power back down in humiliation (that's the way they will see it) there is no limit to what they can do. How can the US now send another "Spy" plane into the area without showing its word is worthless? And how many escorts will be needed? On the surface, it looks as if the US has lost this one, big-time. Hope I am wrong.
And, in a now typical US move, the war was taken over by the politicians and utterly corrupted. As it turns out, it would be safe to say that Saddam not only got a stalemate, he got a victory. Leaving Saddam free to re-build, with the major part of his army intact, made the loss of life, civilian as well as military and on both sides, pointless.
Just as the Chinese are indoctrinated by their own propaganda, so are the Americans (my father in law is a Kansas farmer and he believes everything CNN tells him to believe. In my experience, typical behaviour. And don't start me on what California teaches my kids in school!). We are upset when Japan changes history in its school text books, but don't care when the US does the same. Go figure...
I just hope that this is not the end of it, since the Chinese will now feel free to rule the South China Sea, and its neighbours, with force. If they could make the world's only super power back down in humiliation (that's the way they will see it) there is no limit to what they can do. How can the US now send another "Spy" plane into the area without showing its word is worthless? And how many escorts will be needed? On the surface, it looks as if the US has lost this one, big-time. Hope I am wrong.
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bunyip
At the risk of being too philosophical for R&N, you need to keep in mind lad that many things are more important than one nation's foolish pride.
The Gulf War was shrouded in the suspicion (of many Americans) that we were there as much to preserve unusually low oil prices for the region as we were to stick a boot in Saddam's arse on more noble grounds.
That man has brutalized his countrymen so thoroughly, that through sheer terror or white-knuckled-insanity, they peole obliged to acknowledge him as a near God.
At one point, we had the advantage of intelligence and position that would've allowed us to wipe the twisted b*stard up. The reasoning behind not doing it was that we are loathe to create a martyr of him and (as ROC rightly pointed out) we could not guarantee that his replacement wouldn't be equally unstable.
Sometimes the 'devil' you know is safer than the one you don't.
This situation with China was a far more delicate than it may have seemed. A statement of regret is hardly a cowardly move and a relatively small price to pay for maintaining diplomactic relations. The U.S. isn't at liberty to go off half-cocked--we have a great responsibility to consider the implications, not only or ourselves, but for those who rely on our diplomatic influence (backed by threat of less pleasant alternatives) for their security or even their autonomy.
Very few things in life are anywhere near as simple as they seem--there is no shame in overcoming force through yeilding--just ask any black belt in martial arts
At the risk of being too philosophical for R&N, you need to keep in mind lad that many things are more important than one nation's foolish pride.
The Gulf War was shrouded in the suspicion (of many Americans) that we were there as much to preserve unusually low oil prices for the region as we were to stick a boot in Saddam's arse on more noble grounds.
That man has brutalized his countrymen so thoroughly, that through sheer terror or white-knuckled-insanity, they peole obliged to acknowledge him as a near God.
At one point, we had the advantage of intelligence and position that would've allowed us to wipe the twisted b*stard up. The reasoning behind not doing it was that we are loathe to create a martyr of him and (as ROC rightly pointed out) we could not guarantee that his replacement wouldn't be equally unstable.
Sometimes the 'devil' you know is safer than the one you don't.
This situation with China was a far more delicate than it may have seemed. A statement of regret is hardly a cowardly move and a relatively small price to pay for maintaining diplomactic relations. The U.S. isn't at liberty to go off half-cocked--we have a great responsibility to consider the implications, not only or ourselves, but for those who rely on our diplomatic influence (backed by threat of less pleasant alternatives) for their security or even their autonomy.
Very few things in life are anywhere near as simple as they seem--there is no shame in overcoming force through yeilding--just ask any black belt in martial arts
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To LS, yes you are right, and I agree with you 100%, but it is not what I think that is important (my wife reminds me of that all the time). It is what China thinks that counts. Based on their way of spinning what has happened, they will base their future actions. You (and maybe I) can think logically, but China, and the nations it seeks to dominate, do not.
The similarity with Iraq is striking to me, since Saddam remains a real threat to the peace and stability of the world, when he could have been stopped, or at least put back many years. No doubt he will be replaced by someone just as bad, but maybe not. Whoever it is cannot be worse, and if the Gulf War had been allowed to continue to the point where Iraq was on it's knees, we would at least have had breathing space; for example we could have arms inspectors in country.
I am not suggesting that the US take a hard line with China, but what they have done could hardly be seen as anything other than Kowtowing, with all of it's implications. Would Bill have done it any other way? And has China learned that the US, under the new President, can be pushed around?
Was the South China Morning Post report correct about the actions of the Chinese after the collision? Does the agreement between the two nations now mean that the US cannot fly reconnaisance in the South China Sea? What about the next time the Chinese intercept a P3? I would bet that there are some unhappy people in Taiwan right now.
I will watch with interest the events in Asia over the next months.
The similarity with Iraq is striking to me, since Saddam remains a real threat to the peace and stability of the world, when he could have been stopped, or at least put back many years. No doubt he will be replaced by someone just as bad, but maybe not. Whoever it is cannot be worse, and if the Gulf War had been allowed to continue to the point where Iraq was on it's knees, we would at least have had breathing space; for example we could have arms inspectors in country.
I am not suggesting that the US take a hard line with China, but what they have done could hardly be seen as anything other than Kowtowing, with all of it's implications. Would Bill have done it any other way? And has China learned that the US, under the new President, can be pushed around?
Was the South China Morning Post report correct about the actions of the Chinese after the collision? Does the agreement between the two nations now mean that the US cannot fly reconnaisance in the South China Sea? What about the next time the Chinese intercept a P3? I would bet that there are some unhappy people in Taiwan right now.
I will watch with interest the events in Asia over the next months.
Guest
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RESULTS MATTER -
Iraq was a different matter. Hussein is the 'known devil' who buffers Israel and Iran. He's relatively easy to control.
The U.S. openly facilitated Hussein before the fact, including April Gillespie claiming that the U.S. was indifferent to Hussein's plans. Don't forget whose money Hussein was operating on, with the further facilitation of the USA. Israel was on top of Hussein all the way. Don't forget Gerald Bull & the 'super gun.' Hussein was nobody's surprise, before, during or after.
The test of this mess with China is to be found in future rhetoric which will escape mainstream news.
If this event is used as a spring-board (don't forget they are keeping the aircraft), this could be an escalation to further moves by China.
God only knows what deals were made in the background. It's all about money. This was no minor event.
Time will tell; watch closely.
Iraq was a different matter. Hussein is the 'known devil' who buffers Israel and Iran. He's relatively easy to control.
The U.S. openly facilitated Hussein before the fact, including April Gillespie claiming that the U.S. was indifferent to Hussein's plans. Don't forget whose money Hussein was operating on, with the further facilitation of the USA. Israel was on top of Hussein all the way. Don't forget Gerald Bull & the 'super gun.' Hussein was nobody's surprise, before, during or after.
The test of this mess with China is to be found in future rhetoric which will escape mainstream news.
If this event is used as a spring-board (don't forget they are keeping the aircraft), this could be an escalation to further moves by China.
God only knows what deals were made in the background. It's all about money. This was no minor event.
Time will tell; watch closely.