Airlines To Routinely Monitor Cockpit Voice Recordings?
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I have sadly been in the rare position of listening to a CVR from an accident I was involved in. We sat with the AAIB and listened from the moment the unit was powered up (when P2 got into his seat) until impact, when the G switch stopped it. P2 was a senior management pilot and friend, some of the things we discussed would have made my mother blush (anybody who's met her would be surprised to know she could) and some things were about the company, and some things were intensly personal (divorce and all that goes with it) The key times (top of drop to impact) we had a sterile cockpit and the SOPs were followed to the letter. When the report came out we were in the clear, but if the company had heard the conversation I have no doubts unemployment would have come swiftly and with a lot of malice.
At the same company there was a rumour that the man who monitered CVRs for maintenance purposes had repeated parts of conversations. I do not know if it was true, but afterwards the erase button was always pressed.
I am totally against company monitoring of CVRs. We have to be trusted to do our jobs, as we trust those who maintain our aircraft and keep them apart in flight. If the book says "Sterile cockpit below ???" then trust us to do that. If at the court of enquiry we have not followed procedure then hang us out to dry. We have to learn from the mistakes of others, if we do then CVR monitoring is utterly unnecessary.
At the same company there was a rumour that the man who monitered CVRs for maintenance purposes had repeated parts of conversations. I do not know if it was true, but afterwards the erase button was always pressed.
I am totally against company monitoring of CVRs. We have to be trusted to do our jobs, as we trust those who maintain our aircraft and keep them apart in flight. If the book says "Sterile cockpit below ???" then trust us to do that. If at the court of enquiry we have not followed procedure then hang us out to dry. We have to learn from the mistakes of others, if we do then CVR monitoring is utterly unnecessary.
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I think there is more fundamental reason not to have routine monitoring of CVRs even if privacy concerns could be addressed.
Employee monitoring, whatever the environment, is the same. While there are claims of various enhancements that come from these, I have yet to see ANY employee monitoring system deliver except when, in call centers, a manager is LISTENING (only!) to a phone call from the stand point of the customer and then providing feedback to the agent.
The issue is that empoyee monitoring changes the perception of the employee from management's perspective. The quest for more information leads to all sorts of other issues.
In the end this ALWAYS comes back to professionalism. If you want to have professional employees that do good quality work, you DO NOT monitor them any more than is necessary for training.
However, I think there is one exception-- safety research. I would like to see random samples from a million landings pulled by the NTSB and a baseline established for sterility in the cockpit. It would be interesting to know if the sterile cockpit rule works or not, whether it can be shown to improve safety, etc. Follow up on rules changes some time after issues in order to re-establish base-lines would be helpful in determining:
1) Are the rules helpful from a safety perspective?
2) Have the rules created a real difference in the cockpit?
So yes, there is an anti-incident role for these tapes, but I would not trust the airlines on this matter.
Employee monitoring, whatever the environment, is the same. While there are claims of various enhancements that come from these, I have yet to see ANY employee monitoring system deliver except when, in call centers, a manager is LISTENING (only!) to a phone call from the stand point of the customer and then providing feedback to the agent.
The issue is that empoyee monitoring changes the perception of the employee from management's perspective. The quest for more information leads to all sorts of other issues.
In the end this ALWAYS comes back to professionalism. If you want to have professional employees that do good quality work, you DO NOT monitor them any more than is necessary for training.
However, I think there is one exception-- safety research. I would like to see random samples from a million landings pulled by the NTSB and a baseline established for sterility in the cockpit. It would be interesting to know if the sterile cockpit rule works or not, whether it can be shown to improve safety, etc. Follow up on rules changes some time after issues in order to re-establish base-lines would be helpful in determining:
1) Are the rules helpful from a safety perspective?
2) Have the rules created a real difference in the cockpit?
So yes, there is an anti-incident role for these tapes, but I would not trust the airlines on this matter.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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In a posting Report on incident in DUB 2007
"With reference to the report 1.13.2 "Information contained on the CVR was not preserved by the flight crew and consequently was not available to the investigation."
Does this mean the flight crew can erase such recordings or does it mean the recording was automatically recorded over? What do they need to do to preserve a recording?"
Reply received -
"Erasing CVRs
data is recorded on a loop and starts to over-write when it gets back to the beginning of the loop. SOPs usually have provision for tripping the CB after an event to preserve the evidence. It's not unknown for crews to leave the CVR running so that critical conversations are over-written."
If the above can apply in the event of a serious incident why would anyone be worried about big brother listening when it appears to be so easy to erase the recording?
"With reference to the report 1.13.2 "Information contained on the CVR was not preserved by the flight crew and consequently was not available to the investigation."
Does this mean the flight crew can erase such recordings or does it mean the recording was automatically recorded over? What do they need to do to preserve a recording?"
Reply received -
"Erasing CVRs
data is recorded on a loop and starts to over-write when it gets back to the beginning of the loop. SOPs usually have provision for tripping the CB after an event to preserve the evidence. It's not unknown for crews to leave the CVR running so that critical conversations are over-written."
If the above can apply in the event of a serious incident why would anyone be worried about big brother listening when it appears to be so easy to erase the recording?
Join Date: Mar 2008
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When and if this happens my answer will be simple. The CVR breaker comes out, gets collared and stays that way.
If the trend towards prosecuting pilots continues I will pull the DFDR breakers as well.
If the trend towards prosecuting pilots continues I will pull the DFDR breakers as well.
Join Date: May 2001
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During an investigation.The CVR recordings/transcripts pertaining to the Incident/accident should be considered & not any personal talk many minutes prior.
Out here a regulatory Mandatory Modification has made the Erase button ineffective on all Local registered Aircraft to avoid deliberate erasure.
regds
MEL.
Out here a regulatory Mandatory Modification has made the Erase button ineffective on all Local registered Aircraft to avoid deliberate erasure.
regds
MEL.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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OD100: "You're on company-time, flying company-owned equipment. The CVR belongs to the company. If they want to monitor it, have at it. No different than company-monitoring of any piece of equipment they are providing you (i.e., laptop, cell-phone, etc...).
Simple as that."
My thoughts exactly. Why is it that some pilots believe that their profession should be the exception? They have great responsibility for the lives of others, with which should come commensurate obligations and restrictions as well as benefits.
Of course it's a rhetorical question, enough pilots do not conceal their motives to leave any doubt. This thread teaches that industrial relations in the profession are even worse than one imagined, to the point that for some, distrust and hostility are driving the thinking. Very sad.
Simple as that."
My thoughts exactly. Why is it that some pilots believe that their profession should be the exception? They have great responsibility for the lives of others, with which should come commensurate obligations and restrictions as well as benefits.
Of course it's a rhetorical question, enough pilots do not conceal their motives to leave any doubt. This thread teaches that industrial relations in the profession are even worse than one imagined, to the point that for some, distrust and hostility are driving the thinking. Very sad.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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No, because airline managers are not directly and immediately responsible for the lives of hundreds of people, in any way that can reasonably be compared to professional pilots.
(thank heavens - I suspect we can agree on that at any rate.)
(thank heavens - I suspect we can agree on that at any rate.)
Join Date: May 2001
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IMHO routinely monitoring the CVR will not improve safety per se, and will in all likelihood reduce crew moral. That is more likely to have a negative impact on safety and therefore negate any imagined improvement they hope they gain. Although we all know they would not be doing it for safety, despite what they may claim.
Managers know the score; they need our co-operation to run the operation. The moment they start that kind of nonsense, the co-operation suddenly disappears.
This is how it goes.
Suddenly we all report on time instead of our usual twenty minutes early to get the pre fight planning done for an on time for departure.
Or oops we’re five minutes into discretion, time to land at the closest airport and let the company rescue the passengers, crew and aircraft.
Or no, I’m not prepared to accept that defect for this flight.
Or no, I can’t help you out and operate a flight on my day off.
Or I know the plog says we need 14500KG fuel, but I think we need 16000KG... there’s the outside chance we may have to hold at destination despite the fact that we are arriving at 03:00
Most company managers understand that an airlines success is due in no small part to the good will that the engineers, cabin crew and pilots routinely demonstrate. This is usually well beyond what our respective contracts stipulate.
Managers know the score; they need our co-operation to run the operation. The moment they start that kind of nonsense, the co-operation suddenly disappears.
This is how it goes.
Suddenly we all report on time instead of our usual twenty minutes early to get the pre fight planning done for an on time for departure.
Or oops we’re five minutes into discretion, time to land at the closest airport and let the company rescue the passengers, crew and aircraft.
Or no, I’m not prepared to accept that defect for this flight.
Or no, I can’t help you out and operate a flight on my day off.
Or I know the plog says we need 14500KG fuel, but I think we need 16000KG... there’s the outside chance we may have to hold at destination despite the fact that we are arriving at 03:00
Most company managers understand that an airlines success is due in no small part to the good will that the engineers, cabin crew and pilots routinely demonstrate. This is usually well beyond what our respective contracts stipulate.
