Air Marshal Uses Gun to Subdue "Noncompliant" Pax
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Avman - no need for the American bashing - only a select few of us are naive - unfortunately they are the ones making the rules right now! I hardly think any developed country would face the same circumstances and not run in circles throwing out stupid ideas. Don't believe this is limited to the US!
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I share your frustrations with passenger security screening. I do not share your belief that shutting down DCA is not an option. If it becomes too much of a problem to comply with the special ops at DCA, I believe they will shut it down. In effect, they are saying here's the procedures, deal with it until we can come up with a better solution. You can be sure that the airlines are working to achieve that better solution. So far, they have not bought the ideas that have been offered. What can you do? Keep a cool head and keep trying.
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Reagan National is too damn close to several symbols of America. The Americans are not going to make possible the desecration or destruction of any of these symbols...again.
You have to remain seated, you have to drink less and hold it more and if you still don't GET IT and cannot follow instructions from flight crew, expect a gun in your face you dumbasses.
Get used to it.
You have to remain seated, you have to drink less and hold it more and if you still don't GET IT and cannot follow instructions from flight crew, expect a gun in your face you dumbasses.
Get used to it.
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And the sad thing is that people like RollingThunder don't seem to understand that by acting and talking in this way they are rapidly eroding the very things which those national symbols (used to) stand for.
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>>Sounds like the poor guy was just going to the toilet, I can just imagine it - "FREEZE MOTHERF*CKER".<<
Yep, apparently that was the scenario.
Predictably perhaps, the race card is already being played: "...Agnes Ortiz said her son is not a terrorist. 'No way, he's Navajo -- Native American -- from this country. We were here before all you people,' she said."
_________________________________________
Passenger Prompts Landing At Dulles
Man Approached Cockpit Despite Ban
By Lyndsey Layton and Maria Glod
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, November 13, 2001; Page A08
U.S. sky marshals on a flight from Pittsburgh to Reagan National Airport suddenly ordered a plane to land at Dulles International Airport yesterday, after a passenger got up and started walking toward the cockpit, authorities said.
The passenger, Raho N. Ortiz, 33, refused to follow a new federal rule requiring passengers to remain seated in the last half-hour of an approach to National, said Chris Murray, an FBI spokesman.
About 15 minutes before the plane was to land at National, Ortiz got out of his seat and started walking briskly toward the front of the plane, where a restroom and cockpit are, said David Castelveter, a spokesman for Arlington-based US Airways.
As Ortiz neared the cockpit, a sky marshal in plainclothes seated near the front yelled, 'Stop!' said passenger Mike Cannon, of Arlington.
Two sky marshals -- one with a gun drawn -- and a third man ordered Ortiz to get on the ground. He complied without a struggle, Cannon said. He "kept saying: 'I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just wanted to go to the bathroom.' "
Flight attendants had announced the ban on getting up during the last half-hour of the flight, passengers said.
After the sky marshals had Ortiz handcuffed on the ground, the marshals ordered the other 106 passengers to put their hands behind their heads and later on the seats in front of them for the rest of the trip, several passengers said. Some said they briefly thought that the plane was being hijacked and panicked.
The plane, a nearly full Airbus A319, remained at Dulles rather than following the usual pattern of being allowed to continue on to National after a diversion, said Tom Sullivan, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority, which runs both airports.
Ortiz, a lawyer, works for the Environmental Protection Agency, his mother said last night. When the plane landed at Dulles shortly after 5 p.m., the FBI arrested him on a charge of interfering with a flight crew. By 8:30 p.m., the FBI had dropped the federal charge and released Ortiz, Murray said.
However, the Airports Authority police issued a summons ordering Ortiz to appear in court in Loudoun County to answer a charge of misdemeanor drug possession in connection with the alleged possession of marijuana, according to an Airports Authority spokesman.
It was the first time that U.S. sky marshals diverted a US Airways flight, Castelveter said.
Federal Aviation Administration officials refuse to discuss the sky marshal program in detail, but sources say marshals are aboard all flights into and out of National.
Laura Brown, an FAA spokeswoman, could not confirm whether yesterday's was the first flight diverted by sky marshals. Since flights resumed service to National after Sept. 11, some flights bound for that airport have been rerouted to Dulles. But in most cases, the cause was improper procedures by the pilot, Brown said.
Flight 969 took off from Pittsburgh International Airport at 4:19 p.m. and was due at National at 5:20 p.m. Ortiz left his seat shortly after 5 p.m.
Authorities said he lives in Northeast Washington, but his mother said he lives in San Francisco, where he works for the EPA. Telephone calls to an EPA spokesman went unanswered last night.
Agnes Ortiz said her son is not a terrorist. "No way, he's Navajo -- Native American -- from this country. We were here before all you people," she said.
Yep, apparently that was the scenario.
Predictably perhaps, the race card is already being played: "...Agnes Ortiz said her son is not a terrorist. 'No way, he's Navajo -- Native American -- from this country. We were here before all you people,' she said."
_________________________________________
Passenger Prompts Landing At Dulles
Man Approached Cockpit Despite Ban
By Lyndsey Layton and Maria Glod
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, November 13, 2001; Page A08
U.S. sky marshals on a flight from Pittsburgh to Reagan National Airport suddenly ordered a plane to land at Dulles International Airport yesterday, after a passenger got up and started walking toward the cockpit, authorities said.
The passenger, Raho N. Ortiz, 33, refused to follow a new federal rule requiring passengers to remain seated in the last half-hour of an approach to National, said Chris Murray, an FBI spokesman.
About 15 minutes before the plane was to land at National, Ortiz got out of his seat and started walking briskly toward the front of the plane, where a restroom and cockpit are, said David Castelveter, a spokesman for Arlington-based US Airways.
As Ortiz neared the cockpit, a sky marshal in plainclothes seated near the front yelled, 'Stop!' said passenger Mike Cannon, of Arlington.
Two sky marshals -- one with a gun drawn -- and a third man ordered Ortiz to get on the ground. He complied without a struggle, Cannon said. He "kept saying: 'I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just wanted to go to the bathroom.' "
Flight attendants had announced the ban on getting up during the last half-hour of the flight, passengers said.
After the sky marshals had Ortiz handcuffed on the ground, the marshals ordered the other 106 passengers to put their hands behind their heads and later on the seats in front of them for the rest of the trip, several passengers said. Some said they briefly thought that the plane was being hijacked and panicked.
The plane, a nearly full Airbus A319, remained at Dulles rather than following the usual pattern of being allowed to continue on to National after a diversion, said Tom Sullivan, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority, which runs both airports.
Ortiz, a lawyer, works for the Environmental Protection Agency, his mother said last night. When the plane landed at Dulles shortly after 5 p.m., the FBI arrested him on a charge of interfering with a flight crew. By 8:30 p.m., the FBI had dropped the federal charge and released Ortiz, Murray said.
However, the Airports Authority police issued a summons ordering Ortiz to appear in court in Loudoun County to answer a charge of misdemeanor drug possession in connection with the alleged possession of marijuana, according to an Airports Authority spokesman.
It was the first time that U.S. sky marshals diverted a US Airways flight, Castelveter said.
Federal Aviation Administration officials refuse to discuss the sky marshal program in detail, but sources say marshals are aboard all flights into and out of National.
Laura Brown, an FAA spokeswoman, could not confirm whether yesterday's was the first flight diverted by sky marshals. Since flights resumed service to National after Sept. 11, some flights bound for that airport have been rerouted to Dulles. But in most cases, the cause was improper procedures by the pilot, Brown said.
Flight 969 took off from Pittsburgh International Airport at 4:19 p.m. and was due at National at 5:20 p.m. Ortiz left his seat shortly after 5 p.m.
Authorities said he lives in Northeast Washington, but his mother said he lives in San Francisco, where he works for the EPA. Telephone calls to an EPA spokesman went unanswered last night.
Agnes Ortiz said her son is not a terrorist. "No way, he's Navajo -- Native American -- from this country. We were here before all you people," she said.
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Sounds ridiculous!
Am I the only one to mention that waving a firearm around in a pressure hull up at FL200+ is a distinctly un-sensible thing to do at all.
Regardless of the training / calibre of the individual holding the weapon, if he feels he has to use it, or it is fired by accident, can we live with the consequences..?!?!
Stun guns sound a little less suicidal.
Am I the only one to mention that waving a firearm around in a pressure hull up at FL200+ is a distinctly un-sensible thing to do at all.
Regardless of the training / calibre of the individual holding the weapon, if he feels he has to use it, or it is fired by accident, can we live with the consequences..?!?!
Stun guns sound a little less suicidal.
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Quite right feetetc... am I the only one to see how easily this could have gone horribly wrong? If I was pax on a flight in the USA today and a guy started waving a gun and ordering my hands in the air I'd have a bloody good go at him, whether he claimed to be a sky marshal or not... I think we're moderately fortunate that didn't happen in this case.
Totally preposterous John Wayne approach to a subject that is far too serious for this. IMHO. Sky marshals, yes. Breaking cover and waving a gun because someone who needs to **** (and may not speak English) stands up, NO! Makes about as much sense as confiscating nailfiles whilst selling duty free high-proof spirit in glass bottles...
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: Ranger One ]
Totally preposterous John Wayne approach to a subject that is far too serious for this. IMHO. Sky marshals, yes. Breaking cover and waving a gun because someone who needs to **** (and may not speak English) stands up, NO! Makes about as much sense as confiscating nailfiles whilst selling duty free high-proof spirit in glass bottles...
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: Ranger One ]
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to all here who think that all U.S. law enforcement officers are john wayne type cowboys, waiving guns in pax faces - how about you do a little research first. us marshalls are put through a 3 month training course similar to what field agents of the FBI, DEA and other special ops programs. they are highly trained and are quite aware of their environment. i know a little of he program because i have a family member and a friend who are in the program.
just a little school lesson for you; not every american with a gun rides around on a horse "shootin' up the town". you may find it hard to believe, but we (americans) have highly trained law enforcement officers just as you do. by the way, armed officers on board seems to work for the Israelis.
while europe may think of the current world environment as an inconvenience, we have a different take on it. we are at WAR. there will obviously be some over-reactions, especially in the early stages as we all get used to this new environment. we were attacked, remember? i would much rather err on the cautious side than to have another plane crash into the capital.
as for the incident that started this thread.
my hats off the the marshalls and the flight crew for doing their job and following procedures. has anyone here ever flown into DCA? i have. as mentioned by someone earlier, there are special procedures for flights in and out of DCA because of its close proximity to some of our countries most sensitive areas. these are well briefed to the pax. if there was a language problem then the procedure needs to be modified, but it certainly wasnt a case of the marshalls "kicking up there spurs". honestly, some of the xenophobic comments towards the U.S. are unbelievably naive, makes you wonder how this country became so succesful with all the gun-totin' roughnecks riding around.
as for the passengers being ordered to put there hands above their heads. this makes perfect sense. once you have commited yourself to taking action, you have to secure the entire aircraft. how many of the Sep 11 aircraft had one hijacker on board? how would you quicky identify any other potential hijackers?
for anyone who has a chance, i would recommend visiting the WTC disaster site. i was there a couple of weeks ago. it kind of puts things in perspective.
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: LMD ]
just a little school lesson for you; not every american with a gun rides around on a horse "shootin' up the town". you may find it hard to believe, but we (americans) have highly trained law enforcement officers just as you do. by the way, armed officers on board seems to work for the Israelis.
while europe may think of the current world environment as an inconvenience, we have a different take on it. we are at WAR. there will obviously be some over-reactions, especially in the early stages as we all get used to this new environment. we were attacked, remember? i would much rather err on the cautious side than to have another plane crash into the capital.
as for the incident that started this thread.
my hats off the the marshalls and the flight crew for doing their job and following procedures. has anyone here ever flown into DCA? i have. as mentioned by someone earlier, there are special procedures for flights in and out of DCA because of its close proximity to some of our countries most sensitive areas. these are well briefed to the pax. if there was a language problem then the procedure needs to be modified, but it certainly wasnt a case of the marshalls "kicking up there spurs". honestly, some of the xenophobic comments towards the U.S. are unbelievably naive, makes you wonder how this country became so succesful with all the gun-totin' roughnecks riding around.
as for the passengers being ordered to put there hands above their heads. this makes perfect sense. once you have commited yourself to taking action, you have to secure the entire aircraft. how many of the Sep 11 aircraft had one hijacker on board? how would you quicky identify any other potential hijackers?
for anyone who has a chance, i would recommend visiting the WTC disaster site. i was there a couple of weeks ago. it kind of puts things in perspective.
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: LMD ]
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Yes LMD I have flown into DCA many times over the last few years and I grew up under the flight path on the south - I do not believe US law enforcement types are "cowboys" I just think the "special rules" are ridiculous! If we close down DCA because of terrorist fears we play right into their fears! Do we just throw away billions in infrastructure and thousands of jobs for fear? The 30 min rule has no demonstrated basis in fact - if it did then we should have 30 min rules for any flight travelling within 30 mins of DC -oops shouldn't have said that the politicians might just try that too now!
We need to keep the nuts off the planes and that is a legitimate law enforcement job.
We need to keep the nuts off the planes and that is a legitimate law enforcement job.
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just a couple of more points,
LimaNovember,
you mentioned that an aircraft was no place for "trigger happy people". i'm sorry,
i missed the part of the story where the reckless marshall shot up the airplane
killing all on board. the marshalls showed restraint.
Ranger One,
"If I was pax on a flight in the USA today and a guy started waving a gun and
ordering my hands in the air I'd have a bloody good go at him, whether he claimed
to be a sky marshal or not..."
hey james bond, lets be honest, if a 6'3" 220 lb federal marshall stood in front of you
pointing his Glock at your nose, i think you would sit down and say "yes sir" and
do exactly as he intructs. and you accuse the americans of being cowboys?
Avman,
"God bless America, the land of the hopelessly naive and paranoid".
Avman, please enlighten us all with your grand knowledge of all things
in the known universe. your arrogance is sickening. please excuse
the paranoia. did you know anyone in the WTC 11Sep? have you been
to the site?by the way, which is it, naive or paranoid? its hard to
both at the same time.
"Then they'll wonder why there are no tourists and why no one is flying
anymore. Yep, God bless America!"
so your saying the reason that the tourist industry is down is because
of the sky marshalls on the aircraft? are you sure you want to stick
with that rediculous statement?
why do you keep saying "god bless america"? do you have an ax to grind?
LimaNovember,
you mentioned that an aircraft was no place for "trigger happy people". i'm sorry,
i missed the part of the story where the reckless marshall shot up the airplane
killing all on board. the marshalls showed restraint.
Ranger One,
"If I was pax on a flight in the USA today and a guy started waving a gun and
ordering my hands in the air I'd have a bloody good go at him, whether he claimed
to be a sky marshal or not..."
hey james bond, lets be honest, if a 6'3" 220 lb federal marshall stood in front of you
pointing his Glock at your nose, i think you would sit down and say "yes sir" and
do exactly as he intructs. and you accuse the americans of being cowboys?
Avman,
"God bless America, the land of the hopelessly naive and paranoid".
Avman, please enlighten us all with your grand knowledge of all things
in the known universe. your arrogance is sickening. please excuse
the paranoia. did you know anyone in the WTC 11Sep? have you been
to the site?by the way, which is it, naive or paranoid? its hard to
both at the same time.
"Then they'll wonder why there are no tourists and why no one is flying
anymore. Yep, God bless America!"
so your saying the reason that the tourist industry is down is because
of the sky marshalls on the aircraft? are you sure you want to stick
with that rediculous statement?
why do you keep saying "god bless america"? do you have an ax to grind?
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Biz SLF,
i am not saying that we should shut down DCA. as a matter of fact, i was early on saying that it should be reopened. the more that we change our lifestyle, the more these bastards win. all we are showing by closing DCA is that we are afraid of them.
listen, europe and the rest of the world may have decades and centuries of war, terrorism, killing and strife, but we are kind of new at this (who is the lucky one). i have been astonished at the border-line joy that has been voiced by our "friends" that the U.S. are now part of all of this. whatever, but give us a chance to come up to your expert level of dealing with terrorism and security. along the way we will makes some mistakes and changes but in the end i know where i would rather be.
i am not saying that we should shut down DCA. as a matter of fact, i was early on saying that it should be reopened. the more that we change our lifestyle, the more these bastards win. all we are showing by closing DCA is that we are afraid of them.
listen, europe and the rest of the world may have decades and centuries of war, terrorism, killing and strife, but we are kind of new at this (who is the lucky one). i have been astonished at the border-line joy that has been voiced by our "friends" that the U.S. are now part of all of this. whatever, but give us a chance to come up to your expert level of dealing with terrorism and security. along the way we will makes some mistakes and changes but in the end i know where i would rather be.
LMD, no I have no ax to grind. I have been in the USA two to three times a year every year since the mid seventies. On the whole Americans are very nice people but, from personal experience, I have found them (with some exceptions)to be insular, and naive about life outside the USA. My well-travelled American friends agree with me. With regard to paranoia: right now there is a dire need for the American aviation industry to woo the public back into its airplanes. I can't see reports of gun toting Sky Marshals ordering innocent passengers to put their hands behind their heads as a means of achieving this. I have personally found America to be a land of extremes. Authorities generally either totally ignore or completely over react to problems or emergencies. They seem to have little ability to gauge appropriate reaction. Again, I have had numerous personal experiences of this. I'm not American bashing but simply telling it how how I see it. If America is as good as it perceives itself to be, I'd expect better than I've seen so far. Incidentally, we Europeans have been "at war" much longer than you have, so please don't patronise us on that issue!
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Avman,
i wasnt patronizing you. i do realize that europe has had these problems for a long time. i am both sad for you and happy that up until 2 months ago we didnt have these problems. i am proud that we have been spared these atrocoties until recently. what i was reacting to was your arrogance and condescending attitude towards the U.S. i didnt realize that you and your country had it all figured out and are currently living in nirvana. your attitude reeks of envy and there is an air of glee in your comments that we have fallen on our faces. whlle america is far from perfect your take on it is thankfully erroneous. you make the statement that we either dont react or over react to situations. whatever. you base this on a few visits. well, i have lived here 34 years and things generally work pretty well.
as a matter of fact, the more i travel around the world and see other countries and cultures, the more i am proud to be an American and grateful to God that i was born in this land.
good luck to you and i am sorry you are forced to endure america and its people twice a year.
to Bush,
you need to stop basing your opinions of americans on hollywood, big guy. thankfully, hollywood does not represent the rest of us "normal" americans. while i have been accused of being naive, these comments show where the real naivity lies.
here is scenerio for you.
i (you) am a pilot on a flight that has been deemed to have security issues. all passengers are briefed on the special procedures involved (very little inconvenience by the way, in america flights of 1 hour routinely never turn off the seatbelt sign). during the descent a passenger gets up and walks towards the front of the aircraft. he doesnt respond to challenges from the cabin crew. the undercover marshalls sit and do nothing. as the pilot in command, i would be very upset. thats what they are there for. the real marshalls did their job. nothing more, nothing less.
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: LMD ]
i wasnt patronizing you. i do realize that europe has had these problems for a long time. i am both sad for you and happy that up until 2 months ago we didnt have these problems. i am proud that we have been spared these atrocoties until recently. what i was reacting to was your arrogance and condescending attitude towards the U.S. i didnt realize that you and your country had it all figured out and are currently living in nirvana. your attitude reeks of envy and there is an air of glee in your comments that we have fallen on our faces. whlle america is far from perfect your take on it is thankfully erroneous. you make the statement that we either dont react or over react to situations. whatever. you base this on a few visits. well, i have lived here 34 years and things generally work pretty well.
as a matter of fact, the more i travel around the world and see other countries and cultures, the more i am proud to be an American and grateful to God that i was born in this land.
good luck to you and i am sorry you are forced to endure america and its people twice a year.
to Bush,
you need to stop basing your opinions of americans on hollywood, big guy. thankfully, hollywood does not represent the rest of us "normal" americans. while i have been accused of being naive, these comments show where the real naivity lies.
here is scenerio for you.
i (you) am a pilot on a flight that has been deemed to have security issues. all passengers are briefed on the special procedures involved (very little inconvenience by the way, in america flights of 1 hour routinely never turn off the seatbelt sign). during the descent a passenger gets up and walks towards the front of the aircraft. he doesnt respond to challenges from the cabin crew. the undercover marshalls sit and do nothing. as the pilot in command, i would be very upset. thats what they are there for. the real marshalls did their job. nothing more, nothing less.
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: LMD ]
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Excellent post, Avman. I have been accused elsewhere of being "Anti-American". You'll have to take my word for it that's it's not true.
However, agreeing with Avman, you guys are, frequently, hopelessly naive. It's actually one of the qualities that most endear you to us, as well as being one that exasperates much of the rest of the world.
What I've seen of extra USA "security precautions" are a joke. Yes, they look very tough, but then you leave huge gaping holes elsewhere. And this will continue until there is Federal control of aviation security, as there is in the UK and Israel. Why not learn a little from the people who have been fighting terrorism for rather longer than you have? I am proud to have been a very small cog in the machinery fighting terrorism, and, really, you guys don't know which way is up.
Missing elements such as positive baggage identification, search of vehicles on entering airside, etc. etc. should be standard. Do you have any idea at all how easy it would be to get a bomb (or any weapon) onto an American aircraft? Yes, it would still be possible here, but an awful lot more difficult than in the USA.
To state proudly that Sky Marshalls receive 3 months training horrifies me. Why so little?
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]
However, agreeing with Avman, you guys are, frequently, hopelessly naive. It's actually one of the qualities that most endear you to us, as well as being one that exasperates much of the rest of the world.
What I've seen of extra USA "security precautions" are a joke. Yes, they look very tough, but then you leave huge gaping holes elsewhere. And this will continue until there is Federal control of aviation security, as there is in the UK and Israel. Why not learn a little from the people who have been fighting terrorism for rather longer than you have? I am proud to have been a very small cog in the machinery fighting terrorism, and, really, you guys don't know which way is up.
Missing elements such as positive baggage identification, search of vehicles on entering airside, etc. etc. should be standard. Do you have any idea at all how easy it would be to get a bomb (or any weapon) onto an American aircraft? Yes, it would still be possible here, but an awful lot more difficult than in the USA.
To state proudly that Sky Marshalls receive 3 months training horrifies me. Why so little?
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]
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I may be being naive here, but it seems to me that the same people who support the concept of armed air marshals are those who praised the "heroes" on the flight that crashed in Pa. for taking on the hijackers.
As a regular SLF could you please enlighten me on how I should distinguish between a hijacker and an airmarshal when someone stands up, draws a gun and says "I am an air marshal - everyone put your hands on your head"?
Presumably, under the great American way that you are all trying to defend, the airmarshals will come in all shapes, sizes and colours to avoid any discrimination.
If the answer is that anyone who says "I am an air marshal" should now be believed haven't you just undone one of the biggest deterrents that exists for potential hijackers - that 200 pax acting together will always thwart their aims?
And a supplementary question... when in response to the first person standing up and saying "I'm an Air Marshal", everyone put your hands on your head", a second person stands up, draws a gun and says "No, No I'm the Air Marshal he's a hijacker" - who do we believe as a gun battle ensues around us?
It seems to me as a pax that I would MUCH rather have the situation that if someone on a plane draws a gun then I know they are a hijacker - with 200 pax knowing that, the hijacker will be very unlikely to achieve his aims.
If I can be certain that when someone draws a weapon and says "I am an Air Marshal" that they really are one, then logically there is no need to have the Air Marshal in the first place.
This whole concept of air marshals seems logically flawed to me.
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: HKGpax ]
As a regular SLF could you please enlighten me on how I should distinguish between a hijacker and an airmarshal when someone stands up, draws a gun and says "I am an air marshal - everyone put your hands on your head"?
Presumably, under the great American way that you are all trying to defend, the airmarshals will come in all shapes, sizes and colours to avoid any discrimination.
If the answer is that anyone who says "I am an air marshal" should now be believed haven't you just undone one of the biggest deterrents that exists for potential hijackers - that 200 pax acting together will always thwart their aims?
And a supplementary question... when in response to the first person standing up and saying "I'm an Air Marshal", everyone put your hands on your head", a second person stands up, draws a gun and says "No, No I'm the Air Marshal he's a hijacker" - who do we believe as a gun battle ensues around us?
It seems to me as a pax that I would MUCH rather have the situation that if someone on a plane draws a gun then I know they are a hijacker - with 200 pax knowing that, the hijacker will be very unlikely to achieve his aims.
If I can be certain that when someone draws a weapon and says "I am an Air Marshal" that they really are one, then logically there is no need to have the Air Marshal in the first place.
This whole concept of air marshals seems logically flawed to me.
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: HKGpax ]
"Ladies and Gentlemen - we're now 40 minutes from our destination, Ronald Reagan International Airport. In accordance with current regulations, please note that you will be required to remain seated with your seatbelts fastened at all times for the last 30 minutes of this flight, at which time I shall remind you again, flash the seatbelt signs and then leave them on."
"For the terminally stupid, that means when the belt signs are on, SIT DOWN, BELT UP AND SHUT THE F*CK UP!!"
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
"For the terminally stupid, that means when the belt signs are on, SIT DOWN, BELT UP AND SHUT THE F*CK UP!!"
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
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LMD
My friend
It's quite possible that you are making some reasonable points.
But, because you refuse to follow the rules (and this is really quite strange because you seem to be a proponent of following rules and regulations) I do not bother to try to read your posts in full. I suspect I am not alone. The rules I refer to are those of written English: I (the personal pronoun)is a capital; sentences start with capital letters; proper nouns use capitals (for example: America, not america). But you are prepared to type capitals for, for example, WTC. The result is that your messages are difficult to read for the majority who do find it beneficial to follow the rules. Therefore you do not create the impact which, I am sure, you are aiming for.
why, i ask, do you not reckon to comply with common english practice?
My friend
It's quite possible that you are making some reasonable points.
But, because you refuse to follow the rules (and this is really quite strange because you seem to be a proponent of following rules and regulations) I do not bother to try to read your posts in full. I suspect I am not alone. The rules I refer to are those of written English: I (the personal pronoun)is a capital; sentences start with capital letters; proper nouns use capitals (for example: America, not america). But you are prepared to type capitals for, for example, WTC. The result is that your messages are difficult to read for the majority who do find it beneficial to follow the rules. Therefore you do not create the impact which, I am sure, you are aiming for.
why, i ask, do you not reckon to comply with common english practice?
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Phew, I'm glad 4IIA isn't a Brit, otherwise I might have felt the need to apologise for one of my fellow countrymen...
LMD, I think you're being a little over-sensitive. I'm not aware of any "borderline joy" over what has happened in America. What people have expressed here is concern that too much attention is being paid to the wrong aspects of safety. The sky marshalls and 30 minute rule seem to be an over-reaction, while other, more fundamental issues are not being tackled. X-raying of hold luggage is fundamental, as is making sure that if a passenger gets off a flight, so does his luggage. If those elements are being neglected in favour of window-dressing, then there is a problem. This isn't America-bashing, it's constructive criticism.
LMD, I think you're being a little over-sensitive. I'm not aware of any "borderline joy" over what has happened in America. What people have expressed here is concern that too much attention is being paid to the wrong aspects of safety. The sky marshalls and 30 minute rule seem to be an over-reaction, while other, more fundamental issues are not being tackled. X-raying of hold luggage is fundamental, as is making sure that if a passenger gets off a flight, so does his luggage. If those elements are being neglected in favour of window-dressing, then there is a problem. This isn't America-bashing, it's constructive criticism.
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411A
Because the difference is a text in 'merican - (translation to UK English = American the dialect decending from the English early invaders of North America) - as opposed to the language that you describe US English (God bless Microsoft and Bill G. for getting one definition right).
Now 'Boy George' - No not the singer the other one - speaks another derivative of a dialect 'texican english'. Although at present he seems to be talking - pre learnt simplified FBI/CIA English, probably to avoid having to take his foot out of his mouth so often. This simplified version stresses the Black/White and GOOD/BAD logic, fully ignoring the 'there are only shades of grey' logic more favoured by the Europeans. As some of the other thread comments imply, this could be "to be acceptable and understandable to a wider audience of his newer natives".
Learning to live in a multi-cultured society ain't easy. Adding the complexities of "other languages" and then other races, religions and habits only exponentially compounds the problems.
I live my life in 3 languages and manage across 15 radically different cultures, people from 30+ races, creeds, religions, etc. and then try and cope with Europeans, Limeys and 'Mericans also, and have done so for the last 20 years. And we ain't seen nothing yet.
Now anybody toting a Glock in a plane is going to have to prove he's a marshal PDQ or it will probably be 'my dead body alongside those of the other frequent fryers'.
Most of the guys and gals I see fairly often on the flights around here, who are also in the 2000+ pax flying hours a year range, tend to have the concept:
"Anybody taking over an aircraft I'm in, had better be taking it safe and sound to where my ticket says"
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: gofer ]
Because the difference is a text in 'merican - (translation to UK English = American the dialect decending from the English early invaders of North America) - as opposed to the language that you describe US English (God bless Microsoft and Bill G. for getting one definition right).
Now 'Boy George' - No not the singer the other one - speaks another derivative of a dialect 'texican english'. Although at present he seems to be talking - pre learnt simplified FBI/CIA English, probably to avoid having to take his foot out of his mouth so often. This simplified version stresses the Black/White and GOOD/BAD logic, fully ignoring the 'there are only shades of grey' logic more favoured by the Europeans. As some of the other thread comments imply, this could be "to be acceptable and understandable to a wider audience of his newer natives".
Learning to live in a multi-cultured society ain't easy. Adding the complexities of "other languages" and then other races, religions and habits only exponentially compounds the problems.
I live my life in 3 languages and manage across 15 radically different cultures, people from 30+ races, creeds, religions, etc. and then try and cope with Europeans, Limeys and 'Mericans also, and have done so for the last 20 years. And we ain't seen nothing yet.
Now anybody toting a Glock in a plane is going to have to prove he's a marshal PDQ or it will probably be 'my dead body alongside those of the other frequent fryers'.
Most of the guys and gals I see fairly often on the flights around here, who are also in the 2000+ pax flying hours a year range, tend to have the concept:
"Anybody taking over an aircraft I'm in, had better be taking it safe and sound to where my ticket says"
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: gofer ]
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Can anyone address the points brought up by HKGpax? I think they are well worth discussion, certainly more so than the syntax and semantics of the English language!