Take-off data calculations whilst Taxiing
sAx_R54,
Fair Cop young fella!
That was an intended ironic comment on supposedly the best Western airlines in the world conducting absolutely dangerous procedures to cover for the deficiencies of their ground support crew in providing timely information to their operational crew.
It is indeed ironic that we aircrew allow and even condone the slack work operating practices of our ground teams and compromise the critical time before take-off in making up for their company or personal deficiencies.
This is not only not necessary, but it flies in the face of flight safety. Why do we aircrew have such trouble in recognising such errors (threats to safety)?
Because we can do anything that is thrown at us with aplomb and we have bigger balls than anyone else, but of course...
Edited to include phrase "(threats to safety)".
Fair Cop young fella!
That was an intended ironic comment on supposedly the best Western airlines in the world conducting absolutely dangerous procedures to cover for the deficiencies of their ground support crew in providing timely information to their operational crew.
It is indeed ironic that we aircrew allow and even condone the slack work operating practices of our ground teams and compromise the critical time before take-off in making up for their company or personal deficiencies.
This is not only not necessary, but it flies in the face of flight safety. Why do we aircrew have such trouble in recognising such errors (threats to safety)?
Because we can do anything that is thrown at us with aplomb and we have bigger balls than anyone else, but of course...
Edited to include phrase "(threats to safety)".
Last edited by FlexibleResponse; 4th May 2009 at 12:42. Reason: [i] Edited to include phrase "(threats to safety)".[/i]
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Justify 'dangerous procedures' please? Just about the safest airline in the world- how do you explain that? No take-off tailscrape attempts due to inaccurate weights! The system works well and safely. You cannot accuse BA of that- operations have been supremely safe. It is time the rest of the industry was brought up to date!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just about the safest airline in the world- how do you explain that?
I have flown in the past with seconded BA First Officers, and I must say they were very well trained...top notch every one.
Seconded Qantas guys weren't bad, either.
studi;
That's exactly what we did at the airline I retired from - it was an excellent procedure which enhances safety in my view. In the cockpit check we use the flight plan numbers to calculate the takeoff data. We do that about 40 minutes before departure.
The next two times we handle the data are generally a fine-tuning process, not calculating from scratch, (I suspect most carriers do it this way). About ten minutes before departure we receive a preliminary load calculation and revise as necessary. The data is entered and is given a full verbal review and briefing to the entire crew (2, 3 or 4 as the case may be). There are many opportunities to error-trap up to this point.
We push and taxi and on the taxi-out the load final is received and compared with the preliminary data. Almost always, no changes result.
If there's a big load change (freight, usually) or a runway change the data is re-calculated. Our SOPs permit data-entries while taxiing. Most will delay any such work until across all runways. The data incidents I have become aware of were generally upstream of the cockpit process.
The sterile cockpit is the key to preventing almost all errors.
Unfortunately, short turn times even for overseas aircraft do not permit the luxury of a sterile cockpit during the cockpit check, especially if the aircraft has a snag that maintenance is trying to fix or a new MEL item that they're trying to secure and sign-off on. The captain must be aware of all this activity and unless airlines double or triple an aircraft's time on the gate, (less time on the ground is more airplanes in the system without buying more airplanes if you know what I mean), there is no way to avoid this. Managing distraction successfully is a primary, not secondary, task for crews.
Our takeoff data is from the ACARS on some fleet types, from laptops on other types but the procedures don't vary.
Why dont you just get final figures 10 min before off block? Check in closes way earlier than that.
The next two times we handle the data are generally a fine-tuning process, not calculating from scratch, (I suspect most carriers do it this way). About ten minutes before departure we receive a preliminary load calculation and revise as necessary. The data is entered and is given a full verbal review and briefing to the entire crew (2, 3 or 4 as the case may be). There are many opportunities to error-trap up to this point.
We push and taxi and on the taxi-out the load final is received and compared with the preliminary data. Almost always, no changes result.
If there's a big load change (freight, usually) or a runway change the data is re-calculated. Our SOPs permit data-entries while taxiing. Most will delay any such work until across all runways. The data incidents I have become aware of were generally upstream of the cockpit process.
The sterile cockpit is the key to preventing almost all errors.
Unfortunately, short turn times even for overseas aircraft do not permit the luxury of a sterile cockpit during the cockpit check, especially if the aircraft has a snag that maintenance is trying to fix or a new MEL item that they're trying to secure and sign-off on. The captain must be aware of all this activity and unless airlines double or triple an aircraft's time on the gate, (less time on the ground is more airplanes in the system without buying more airplanes if you know what I mean), there is no way to avoid this. Managing distraction successfully is a primary, not secondary, task for crews.
Our takeoff data is from the ACARS on some fleet types, from laptops on other types but the procedures don't vary.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 45
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This procedure is completely safe and far from dangerous as other people on here seem to think 
Certainly safer having well trained Ops people giving you figures by ACARS than having one person working them out in a crowded flightdeck on a laptop...... (see EK accident)
I believe the SOP came from the lack of stands on T4 and now to some extent T5, so essentially the lack of slots at LHR are to do with this. Certainly not BA's fault.
Certainly safer having well trained Ops people giving you figures by ACARS than having one person working them out in a crowded flightdeck on a laptop...... (see EK accident)
I believe the SOP came from the lack of stands on T4 and now to some extent T5, so essentially the lack of slots at LHR are to do with this. Certainly not BA's fault.
