A sign of the times
Retired Tiger pilot
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Yes. Been there done all that but luckily for 37 years in a country where stick nd rudder skills outweighed the BS. Did 5 years in management afterwards get into the full retirement mood and living in RP where $us1000 is just enought to live relatively pleasantly with no mortage or other payments.
I did try 'the land of smiles' or shall we say 'The Land Of Promises',. for 6 odd months recently and found that monthly costs to be us$1000 month living in 1 br rented apartment in RCA Bangkok + daily taxi, power, water, telephone and very little socialising. Pray tell me how you do it on $500/month in case I return for a second bite.
Maybe if you rented a bedsitter for say bt3000 mo, eat in sidewalk stalls, buy Leo at the supermarket, catch the trains to and from, lived like a casterway, your monthly costs could be kept down to around $500. But is life really living at that level or are you existing?
With the demos closing the airports last year, and now the ASEAN summit total loss of face, what did you say about the inmates not being in control?
I did try 'the land of smiles' or shall we say 'The Land Of Promises',. for 6 odd months recently and found that monthly costs to be us$1000 month living in 1 br rented apartment in RCA Bangkok + daily taxi, power, water, telephone and very little socialising. Pray tell me how you do it on $500/month in case I return for a second bite.
Maybe if you rented a bedsitter for say bt3000 mo, eat in sidewalk stalls, buy Leo at the supermarket, catch the trains to and from, lived like a casterway, your monthly costs could be kept down to around $500. But is life really living at that level or are you existing?
With the demos closing the airports last year, and now the ASEAN summit total loss of face, what did you say about the inmates not being in control?
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RIP The Fun of Flying
I've been in aviation for over fifty years, flying for forty and am still on the fringe of the industry. Most of what has been previously said is absolutely true and few people who've been involved in any aspect of aviation for the last twenty-odd years think it's more ENJOYABLE than it used to be. (Though it's probably more productive, reliable and safer?)
But WE are the people who allowed it happen and in many ways, encouraged it to change. In my final days before retirement I can recall many instances of problems arising with the operation either at base or down route and the the regular response from captains, engineers, cabin crew, air trafficers and operations officers, was, "There was nothing in the book to cover this situation - Why not ?"
And instead of telling the chap to pull his finger out and remind him that solving problems was what he was paid for, the "Management" would have dozens of meetings embracing every department within the airline - including HR, Legal, the Union and inevitably 'ealth an'bleeding safety and draw up some tedious new Order and Notice which effectively took the responsibility away from the people in the front line................and we all accepted that this was a good thing ?
We used to have generous rest periods between trips, but WE allowed those who wanted more money, to sell their days-off for a pay rise.
Most companies were prepared to turn a blind eye to crews taking off unused food and opened booze that would otherwise be thrown away but WE didn't stop the greedy minority who half emptied the bars and hoovered up the next sector's Beef-Wellington.
And the list goes on and on. I know the world has changed but we COULD have slowed the changes to our own Industry if we'd put our minds and efforts to it...............Too late now, it may be more efficient but not nearly as much fun.
But WE are the people who allowed it happen and in many ways, encouraged it to change. In my final days before retirement I can recall many instances of problems arising with the operation either at base or down route and the the regular response from captains, engineers, cabin crew, air trafficers and operations officers, was, "There was nothing in the book to cover this situation - Why not ?"
And instead of telling the chap to pull his finger out and remind him that solving problems was what he was paid for, the "Management" would have dozens of meetings embracing every department within the airline - including HR, Legal, the Union and inevitably 'ealth an'bleeding safety and draw up some tedious new Order and Notice which effectively took the responsibility away from the people in the front line................and we all accepted that this was a good thing ?
We used to have generous rest periods between trips, but WE allowed those who wanted more money, to sell their days-off for a pay rise.
Most companies were prepared to turn a blind eye to crews taking off unused food and opened booze that would otherwise be thrown away but WE didn't stop the greedy minority who half emptied the bars and hoovered up the next sector's Beef-Wellington.
And the list goes on and on. I know the world has changed but we COULD have slowed the changes to our own Industry if we'd put our minds and efforts to it...............Too late now, it may be more efficient but not nearly as much fun.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Rubik
I apologise.
I assumed (usually a mistake) from your high hours that you had been forced to retire because of age. Clearly not the case.
If I thought for a minute we could all fight and occasionally win I'd be there but my past experience in that direction left a sour taste.
Enjoy your retirement.
I apologise.
I assumed (usually a mistake) from your high hours that you had been forced to retire because of age. Clearly not the case.
If I thought for a minute we could all fight and occasionally win I'd be there but my past experience in that direction left a sour taste.
Enjoy your retirement.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Stan apology accepted. I mention the figure of £500 a month only for living expenses. I am fortunate in that I have paid for the house I am living in, with the hard earned salary from my flying days. I am also fortunate that this figure will increase this month now that GB and AD stop taking their usurious 40% cut.
Not strictly on thread but there are cheaper places to live if you get to this age and can leave UK. All the surrounding countries to Thailand to name a few!
If I was offered the chance to go back to flying in Europe on £5000 a month, no thanks, I am happy enough here.
I'd post a picture of the pool with me in it if I knew what a URL was!
Not strictly on thread but there are cheaper places to live if you get to this age and can leave UK. All the surrounding countries to Thailand to name a few!
If I was offered the chance to go back to flying in Europe on £5000 a month, no thanks, I am happy enough here.
I'd post a picture of the pool with me in it if I knew what a URL was!
Retired Tiger pilot
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rubik101
500 quid, not $500. Haaaaaa as the old saying goes, when all else fails, re-read the blooooo Question.
Yes 500 quid about bt25,500 and a tidy sum to live on more so when outside of Bkk. Will have to buy you a beer when I'm next in the Londoner.
Cheers.
Yes 500 quid about bt25,500 and a tidy sum to live on more so when outside of Bkk. Will have to buy you a beer when I'm next in the Londoner.
Cheers.
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Sharpie, you may already have bought me a beer! I used to fly through Goose Bay and Gander quite frequently for a few years back in the 80s and would often meet Flying Tiger crews and share a few cold ones.
We should start a thread on the Most Evocative Airline Names; Flying Tigers would be up there near the top along with British Eagle Airlines.
We should start a thread on the Most Evocative Airline Names; Flying Tigers would be up there near the top along with British Eagle Airlines.
Join Date: Jan 2009
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makes me really sad to read how unhappy all you elderly bus drivers are with the parlous state of your profession these days. No glamour any more, very little excitement (unless you are really unlucky), bean counters and bureaucrats rule. And you can't have guests in the cockpit, that used to be the highlight for this SLF in the old days. I'll never forget sitting in the jumpseat of a 747 on approach into the short short X-wind runway into Philadelphia International, wondering how on earth we would get down into THAT! And my dear departed husband's biggest thrill of his life was sitting behind a kind lady captain on night approach into LHR. Those days are gone forever.
But some of us still love to fly. Nobody pays us. We carry on flying into our crumbling old age, and we keep out of your way and suffer the minumum interference from the regulators. One famous chap, a noted guru, is still competition flying in his 80's. While all you retired overweight airline chaps are sitting around in your deck chairs, we are using the elements to stay airborne, and if we get it wrong, we visit a farmer.
You ought to try it sometime. There is life after being a professional pilot.
Do I have to be specific?
But some of us still love to fly. Nobody pays us. We carry on flying into our crumbling old age, and we keep out of your way and suffer the minumum interference from the regulators. One famous chap, a noted guru, is still competition flying in his 80's. While all you retired overweight airline chaps are sitting around in your deck chairs, we are using the elements to stay airborne, and if we get it wrong, we visit a farmer.
You ought to try it sometime. There is life after being a professional pilot.
Do I have to be specific?
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Mary,
I fear that you do! We were all flying privately once, we know what it's like to fly for fun as we all did it.
There is limited responsibility in flying on your own for your personal enjoyment, there are however, significant responsibilities for any aviator to safely piloting any aircraft back to the ground and I would never infer or try to lessen those as they are the same for any individual who takes an aircraft into flight.
We personally chose to take ourselves to the next level and have lost none of the passion for the art of flying. Your comparison is a little likened to those who drive to work in the morning in their own car and those who have the responsibilty of transporting 53 passsengers on board a bus between cities as a professional driver. Driving may be considered similar to flying, different people do it to different levels. Some as amateurs and some as professionals.
I have been flying professionally for over 20 years. I have the same love for it as I have always had, I do not love the regulators and the things that have changed. Some of the youngsters that I fly with are still in their early years and do not see the way the industry is changing around us as they are still in awe and in love with everything that they are learning and doing. We have all been there and have seen through what has changed as life and experience teaches us these things.
Please, I beg of you, do not place yourself in a position off-side of those professionals who have reached the days of retirement, their experience as professionals with company regulation, changes in operations and administration are a fact of our industry and try the patience of most.
We have significant responsiblity which weighs heavy on our shoulders, we do not treat it lightly, I do not wish to argue with you and respect your view but find your comments to be a little unwelcome and unwarranted given your level which insinuate that you have never assumed the responsibilities at the level that we do several times a day to ensure the safety of the general public.
Those who have retired are rarely overweight or sitting on deck chairs, most commonly they are found trying to give something back to an occupation that they have enjoyed immensely through any number of unpaid programmes to provide an avenue for their experience being communicated to others who need to learn.
I have never found a need to visit a farmer, neither do I wish to experience such a thing, particularly with a commercial airliner, perhaps this is the difference between us.
I fly professionally and socially, to the same standard as that is what my training and experience has taught me, please try not to attract the displeasure of those who operate professionally, I do not offer a commentary of those who spend their time gliding, we are what the industry has made us, to do so is human.
I would regret it if your comments attract adverse comments but would reiterate that without any experience of those things that elder statesmen of the industry have lived with, I believe you are not in a postion to offer a balanced view.
Jox
I fear that you do! We were all flying privately once, we know what it's like to fly for fun as we all did it.
There is limited responsibility in flying on your own for your personal enjoyment, there are however, significant responsibilities for any aviator to safely piloting any aircraft back to the ground and I would never infer or try to lessen those as they are the same for any individual who takes an aircraft into flight.
We personally chose to take ourselves to the next level and have lost none of the passion for the art of flying. Your comparison is a little likened to those who drive to work in the morning in their own car and those who have the responsibilty of transporting 53 passsengers on board a bus between cities as a professional driver. Driving may be considered similar to flying, different people do it to different levels. Some as amateurs and some as professionals.
I have been flying professionally for over 20 years. I have the same love for it as I have always had, I do not love the regulators and the things that have changed. Some of the youngsters that I fly with are still in their early years and do not see the way the industry is changing around us as they are still in awe and in love with everything that they are learning and doing. We have all been there and have seen through what has changed as life and experience teaches us these things.
Please, I beg of you, do not place yourself in a position off-side of those professionals who have reached the days of retirement, their experience as professionals with company regulation, changes in operations and administration are a fact of our industry and try the patience of most.
We have significant responsiblity which weighs heavy on our shoulders, we do not treat it lightly, I do not wish to argue with you and respect your view but find your comments to be a little unwelcome and unwarranted given your level which insinuate that you have never assumed the responsibilities at the level that we do several times a day to ensure the safety of the general public.
Those who have retired are rarely overweight or sitting on deck chairs, most commonly they are found trying to give something back to an occupation that they have enjoyed immensely through any number of unpaid programmes to provide an avenue for their experience being communicated to others who need to learn.
I have never found a need to visit a farmer, neither do I wish to experience such a thing, particularly with a commercial airliner, perhaps this is the difference between us.
I fly professionally and socially, to the same standard as that is what my training and experience has taught me, please try not to attract the displeasure of those who operate professionally, I do not offer a commentary of those who spend their time gliding, we are what the industry has made us, to do so is human.
I would regret it if your comments attract adverse comments but would reiterate that without any experience of those things that elder statesmen of the industry have lived with, I believe you are not in a postion to offer a balanced view.
Jox
Jox - beautifully said, thanks on behalf of this retiree and 40-year professional pilot. Mary, nicely said as well - I think I sense what you're driving at: the love of flying in all it's iterations. Believe me, I don't know a retiree who isn't still in love with flying. What's behind the thoughts being expressed here have nothing to do with flying an airplane. If I might be so bold, I wrote an extended note on this on another thread - here's the link to the post. Also, I think Captain Sullenberger best expressed what's eating the profession when he spoke before Congress (the C-SPAN video of his speech says it will be back online after maintenance) a while back. The links should be on that other thread I referred you to.
Let me assure you that retirees aren't sitting in deckchairs waiting for the grim reaper - most I know are as active as ever, giving back as Jox says, or volunteering, or travelling, or consulting as I am, or...? And most of us live well into our eighties, healthy. I was out at the airport this morning photographing takeoffs in the rain and fog...
Flying and the airline career was extremely good to me and my family. None of the observations I and others make about what has happened to this industry in the name of profit-at-any-cost and degrading employees as liabilities instead of the assets that they are, will take away the years of friendship, joy and reward that flying for a major carrier provided.
PJ2
Let me assure you that retirees aren't sitting in deckchairs waiting for the grim reaper - most I know are as active as ever, giving back as Jox says, or volunteering, or travelling, or consulting as I am, or...? And most of us live well into our eighties, healthy. I was out at the airport this morning photographing takeoffs in the rain and fog...
Flying and the airline career was extremely good to me and my family. None of the observations I and others make about what has happened to this industry in the name of profit-at-any-cost and degrading employees as liabilities instead of the assets that they are, will take away the years of friendship, joy and reward that flying for a major carrier provided.
PJ2
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Mary! I'm just 84kg, same as the the last twenty years, luckily!
My wing of choice at the moment is a paraglider, mainly becuase the strip is about 5km from here and the school is run by an Englishman.
Buzzing the beach at 50' is a throwback to a time I can hardly remember!
Times have changed and I know what you mean about the flight deck visits etc. It really was different then.
Now it's just a job, much like most others, the only difference is that the view from the office can't be bought for love nor money. No matter how crap the conditions on the ground, (weather and the company), that moment of breaking through the tops just can't be taken away from us.
100th floor of the Empire State, pahhh, that's nothing! Who wants to spend the whole day at 1200'?
My wing of choice at the moment is a paraglider, mainly becuase the strip is about 5km from here and the school is run by an Englishman.
Buzzing the beach at 50' is a throwback to a time I can hardly remember!
Times have changed and I know what you mean about the flight deck visits etc. It really was different then.
Now it's just a job, much like most others, the only difference is that the view from the office can't be bought for love nor money. No matter how crap the conditions on the ground, (weather and the company), that moment of breaking through the tops just can't be taken away from us.
100th floor of the Empire State, pahhh, that's nothing! Who wants to spend the whole day at 1200'?
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Dear Jox -
I'm very sorry that my comments about retired overweight airline chaps sitting around in deck chairs has upset you . . . I have the utmost respect for the professional pilot who must ensure safe arrival of the multitudes on board.
Be advised that although I usually have only one (1) passenger or student with me, I feel the same deep responsibility for his or her welfare and survival that you do for the many paying passengers behind you. I take very very seriously my duty of care, just as you have done for all those years.
But now that you are ready to retire, by my standards you are still a handsome young fellow with a lot of potential, and time on your hands. I'm sure you are not too heavy for my aircraft (seat limit with parachute 242 pounds). Would you like to have a winch launch with me? I'll try not to visit a farmer.
That's what I was on about, as PJ2, Wiley and Rubic 101 understood. The exhilaration of finding an 8 knot thermal when you really need one, the challenge of flying a 300 k task on a dodgy day, the climb to 20,000 over Scotland with 3 seas in view......you get no money, but there's a lot of satisfaction. Interested, chaps?
I'm very sorry that my comments about retired overweight airline chaps sitting around in deck chairs has upset you . . . I have the utmost respect for the professional pilot who must ensure safe arrival of the multitudes on board.
Be advised that although I usually have only one (1) passenger or student with me, I feel the same deep responsibility for his or her welfare and survival that you do for the many paying passengers behind you. I take very very seriously my duty of care, just as you have done for all those years.
But now that you are ready to retire, by my standards you are still a handsome young fellow with a lot of potential, and time on your hands. I'm sure you are not too heavy for my aircraft (seat limit with parachute 242 pounds). Would you like to have a winch launch with me? I'll try not to visit a farmer.
That's what I was on about, as PJ2, Wiley and Rubic 101 understood. The exhilaration of finding an 8 knot thermal when you really need one, the challenge of flying a 300 k task on a dodgy day, the climb to 20,000 over Scotland with 3 seas in view......you get no money, but there's a lot of satisfaction. Interested, chaps?
I'm 74. I retired at 60 determined never to touch another aeroplane,but that lasted about 2 years. I still maintin a CPL - or did, see below - and fly a C.182 as a Coastguard SAR volunteer pilot and instruct on microlights.
A week ago my licence was pulled on the evidence of an ECG for my CPL renewal, it may ultimately prove to have saved my life but is still a blow and I now await further examination.
Meanwhile - I can still fly microlights with a licensed pilot, and this evening had a session with a guy upgrading his licence. After his flying lesson I took over from the right hand side. The weather was cavok, the w/v dead calm, it was about 30 mins before official night. The sun had just set and as I climbed away it rose again, I completed a circuit and heard the tyres squeak. As I climbed away the second time we got another sunrise and I totally unnecessarily decided to follow the VASI's down to a deeper than necessary touchdown- just because I could - to another squeaky clean landing. Magic. I'd do it all over again - less the a***holes of hotel reception clerks !!
Enjoy.
A week ago my licence was pulled on the evidence of an ECG for my CPL renewal, it may ultimately prove to have saved my life but is still a blow and I now await further examination.
Meanwhile - I can still fly microlights with a licensed pilot, and this evening had a session with a guy upgrading his licence. After his flying lesson I took over from the right hand side. The weather was cavok, the w/v dead calm, it was about 30 mins before official night. The sun had just set and as I climbed away it rose again, I completed a circuit and heard the tyres squeak. As I climbed away the second time we got another sunrise and I totally unnecessarily decided to follow the VASI's down to a deeper than necessary touchdown- just because I could - to another squeaky clean landing. Magic. I'd do it all over again - less the a***holes of hotel reception clerks !!
Enjoy.
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Rubik:
Are you para-gliding out of Eastern??
And like you, with the house and car bought and paid for, some additional expense for a daughter at university for a couple of years more, we get along on 500 quid a month very nicely thankyou despite the drop in the exchange rate since the b(w)ankers got it so badly wrong.
Are you para-gliding out of Eastern??
And like you, with the house and car bought and paid for, some additional expense for a daughter at university for a couple of years more, we get along on 500 quid a month very nicely thankyou despite the drop in the exchange rate since the b(w)ankers got it so badly wrong.
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One thing that rarely gets mentioned is that commercial pilots (of whom I am not one, being merely GA) do not have the same educational support of other professionals - i.e. doctors etc. although they are in a situation where lives are based on their skills, many have had to finance all of their training themselves. How many people in the cabin realise that the guy up the pointed end has had to find maybe up to £45,000 himself to get where he is. (Correct me if my figures are wrong)
Why can't flying be considered a university course together with all the support that entails? after all doctors can earn up to £150,000 a year and the state pays for them to qualify.
Why can't flying be considered a university course together with all the support that entails? after all doctors can earn up to £150,000 a year and the state pays for them to qualify.
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Xeque, I am in Bangsean. My house is a five minute drive from Eastern. Luckily, I have no children that require my support! Once Songkran is over I will be there again. I will pm you when I plan to go again. Where are you?