Black smoke issuing - carry on regardless!
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Black smoke issuing - carry on regardless!
As a regular airline pax I was horrified to read this UK AAIB bulletin. For me it showed a breathtaking 'cowboy' attitude from the captain of a major airline. Is it another case of financial pressure clouding safety considerations? 
AAIB G-BPEC bulletin
AAIB G-BPEC bulletin
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Johhny
I wasn't there, all I have read is the AIB bulletin as you have.
From the info given I would agree with the Captain's actions. More often than not the aicraft instruments will give you a more reliable indication of the state of the aircraft systems than an 'observer' on the ground. We are trained to analyse the data the aircraft gives us, although we may not be fool-proof in that diagnosis.
Fortunately, the crew got the aircraft down, without casualty or loss of life. It is always very easy for everyone to look back on events following an incident and make judgement. When you are travelling at 8 miles a minute you have to make some pretty quick decisions at times that may not be the same you would make if you had a week to think about it especially once someone told you what the problem was!
I wasn't there, all I have read is the AIB bulletin as you have.
From the info given I would agree with the Captain's actions. More often than not the aicraft instruments will give you a more reliable indication of the state of the aircraft systems than an 'observer' on the ground. We are trained to analyse the data the aircraft gives us, although we may not be fool-proof in that diagnosis.
Fortunately, the crew got the aircraft down, without casualty or loss of life. It is always very easy for everyone to look back on events following an incident and make judgement. When you are travelling at 8 miles a minute you have to make some pretty quick decisions at times that may not be the same you would make if you had a week to think about it especially once someone told you what the problem was!
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Hold on - what about the technical history? The l/h engine HP fuel pump had been changed the night before. Black smoke from engine + previous rectification = land soonest in my mind.
Also, everyone know the standard AFS frequency?? Normally 121.6 (just think a bit more from 121.5!). Good decision from the Fire Commander to order an emergency evacuation.
Also, everyone know the standard AFS frequency?? Normally 121.6 (just think a bit more from 121.5!). Good decision from the Fire Commander to order an emergency evacuation.
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Douglas, really??
2 + 2 may equal 5. Are you really gonna declare an emergency based on 'ground reports' plus a tech log entry, without hard evidence that you see before your eyes??
If so, don't ever command an airplane that I might be on.
2 + 2 may equal 5. Are you really gonna declare an emergency based on 'ground reports' plus a tech log entry, without hard evidence that you see before your eyes??
If so, don't ever command an airplane that I might be on.
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Horatio, in a word, yep! For those circumstances, just airborne from a very nice long runway, probably not over-weight (only going to Milan), safety would win everytime (maybe one hour delay on the ground for an engineering check/refuel??). The crew ended up having to divert into an airfield that is listed as Category B due to the terrain, and, had the leak worsened, they would have been put in the position of having to shut an engine down. Add in the bonus of an emergency ground evacuation with major fire risk.....
Sorry, RB211 (or whatever) engines don't smoke without a very good reason; there are other circumstances where an engine problem will not necessarily be indicated by cockpit instrumentation.
(Edited for over-reaction!)
[ 11 November 2001: Message edited by: DouglasDigby ]
Sorry, RB211 (or whatever) engines don't smoke without a very good reason; there are other circumstances where an engine problem will not necessarily be indicated by cockpit instrumentation.
(Edited for over-reaction!)
[ 11 November 2001: Message edited by: DouglasDigby ]
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Douglas, I flew A320's although I was used to the CFM engines.
Fuel leaks on the Airbus can be very difficult to diagnose, I accept, that is why I said we can mis-diagnose such events (See the recent Airbus glider, Transat I think).
My point was that you do not abort or discontinue a flight based upon ground reports and tech log entries alone. Take them into the info you have before your eyes and evaluate them as you see fit.
If you were at V1 and ATC instructed you to abort, what would you do?
Fuel leaks on the Airbus can be very difficult to diagnose, I accept, that is why I said we can mis-diagnose such events (See the recent Airbus glider, Transat I think).
My point was that you do not abort or discontinue a flight based upon ground reports and tech log entries alone. Take them into the info you have before your eyes and evaluate them as you see fit.
If you were at V1 and ATC instructed you to abort, what would you do?
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From the information that is available in the AAIB bulletin, I’d say that although one may or may not agree with the captain’s actions (personally, I tend to agree, since the instruments did not indicate a problem, both engines were running, and there were airports everywhere along the route), one thing is clear: there was no definitely wrong action! It’s all a matter of right and more right.
Johnny, your profile shows that you’re a PPL pilot. Don’t worry too much about what the pros are doing, they’ve been trained to handle situations just like this one. Relax…
Johnny, your profile shows that you’re a PPL pilot. Don’t worry too much about what the pros are doing, they’ve been trained to handle situations just like this one. Relax…
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Abort, probably not! However, there will still be circumstances where it might be prudent to act on "external" information, especially for this B757. In this case, the combination of visual report and engine rectification prior to the flight would have had me back on the ground at LHR reasonably quickly for a precautionary engine inspection.
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Wooof, please read the bulletin. "Thick black smoke" reported by crew of another aircraft. Crews don't report such occurrences unless they think that it's essential! It's always better to keep yourself out the position where 20/20 hindsight would have been the ideal solution, this situation might have been one of them.
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Douglas, I take your point. As commander you will be damned if you do and damned if you don't. You take that challenge when they upgrade you.
All I can say is that you do your very best to make the right decisions on the spot. Passengers will have the luxury of examining your decisions afterwards, especially after they have the chance to digest the black box.
That's why you get paid considerably more than a taxi or lorry driver!
All I can say is that you do your very best to make the right decisions on the spot. Passengers will have the luxury of examining your decisions afterwards, especially after they have the chance to digest the black box.
That's why you get paid considerably more than a taxi or lorry driver!
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Gantembein, you make it sound as if wrong decisions will never be made by professional pilots - me thinks history proves otherwise.
I would have thought black smoke issuing on a first flight after fuel pump had been replaced should have given enough area of doubt to land asap and have it looked at.
The idea you can press on (partially over water) simply because there is lots of airfields en route seems crazy.
I was also concerned at the captains reluctance to comply with the fire service request for an immediate evacuation...I wonder how long it took for him/her to agree, while all the time the fire risk got worse. Perhaps the commander should have listened a little more respectfully to the professionally trained firefighter staring at a fuel leak underneath his aircraft.
Press-on-itis got the better of a mate of my fathers a few years back (and his back seater)...and yes he was a 'professional' pilot.
I would have thought black smoke issuing on a first flight after fuel pump had been replaced should have given enough area of doubt to land asap and have it looked at.
The idea you can press on (partially over water) simply because there is lots of airfields en route seems crazy.
I was also concerned at the captains reluctance to comply with the fire service request for an immediate evacuation...I wonder how long it took for him/her to agree, while all the time the fire risk got worse. Perhaps the commander should have listened a little more respectfully to the professionally trained firefighter staring at a fuel leak underneath his aircraft.
Press-on-itis got the better of a mate of my fathers a few years back (and his back seater)...and yes he was a 'professional' pilot.
Well, if he decided to land right after takeoff, he would have been heavier and the brakes would have been hotter; so, maybe the leaking fuel would have ignited.
On the other hand, the leak probably got considerably worse during cruise.
Not too likely they're going to allow you to taxi back to the terminal if you're leaking fuel.
AFS calling for an evacuation in these circumstances is a prudent call -- better to get the able bodied off calmly than in panic. This will much improve the odds for the frail and handicapped if it gets too hot.
On the other hand, the leak probably got considerably worse during cruise.
Not too likely they're going to allow you to taxi back to the terminal if you're leaking fuel.
AFS calling for an evacuation in these circumstances is a prudent call -- better to get the able bodied off calmly than in panic. This will much improve the odds for the frail and handicapped if it gets too hot.
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For the life of me I can't reconcile "thick black smoke" with an external fuel leak.
The recent PSM+ICR (Propulsion system malfunction + inappropriate crew response)
study and recommendations available on the FAA abd possibly the JAA web site, does not encourage precipitous action by a crew based on ground observations alone.
Based on the AAIB report, it looks like the only confirmation of the problem by the crew, related to the malfunction found, was the monitoring of fuel quanity. I am not aware of any recommended action in the manuals for ground observer reports of "thick black smoke" other than monitor on-board instruments and act based on them.
The recent PSM+ICR (Propulsion system malfunction + inappropriate crew response)
study and recommendations available on the FAA abd possibly the JAA web site, does not encourage precipitous action by a crew based on ground observations alone.
Based on the AAIB report, it looks like the only confirmation of the problem by the crew, related to the malfunction found, was the monitoring of fuel quanity. I am not aware of any recommended action in the manuals for ground observer reports of "thick black smoke" other than monitor on-board instruments and act based on them.
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Based on the information of the AAIB I personally believe the Captain and his Crew did a fine job. Johnny with all due respect you are not qualified to pass judgement nor should you be using Pprune to judge the actions of a Captain.
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I'm not going to indulge in armchair quarterbacking this captains decision... but something doesn't quite add up in the events as described...
I want to know more about the 'heavy black smoke' - it must have been significant for the crew who spotted it to make the call, but there's no mention of a possible source for it in the report. One might expect heat damage, sooting in the bypass duct, or some similar occurence if there had been external combustion. (and why no fire warning? can someone familiar with this 211 installation suggest why?)
It can't have occured as a result of over-fueling the core, the TGT would show it. But the report is silent on other engine damage beyond 'there was a leak', and the cause. Odd.
I want to know more about the 'heavy black smoke' - it must have been significant for the crew who spotted it to make the call, but there's no mention of a possible source for it in the report. One might expect heat damage, sooting in the bypass duct, or some similar occurence if there had been external combustion. (and why no fire warning? can someone familiar with this 211 installation suggest why?)
It can't have occured as a result of over-fueling the core, the TGT would show it. But the report is silent on other engine damage beyond 'there was a leak', and the cause. Odd.
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You tell Johnny to leave it to the pros ---- but another pro on the ground pointed out something clearly abnormal which was disregarded by the crew. Not the call I would have made ........
The crew acted calmly and logically.
They continued the flight and investigated the situation. The captain then made a decision to divert and land.
With fire vehicles attending the aircraft, I can understand the captain's reluctance to evacuate.
Please, folks, don't knock something of which you have little or no experience.
Even flying jet fighters doesn't make you a public transport captain.
I have flown the B757 and can guess the operator but don't work for them.
They continued the flight and investigated the situation. The captain then made a decision to divert and land.
With fire vehicles attending the aircraft, I can understand the captain's reluctance to evacuate.
Please, folks, don't knock something of which you have little or no experience.
Even flying jet fighters doesn't make you a public transport captain.
I have flown the B757 and can guess the operator but don't work for them.
Paxing All Over The World
As an outsider, it seems that the flight crew did their job OK.
What this report cannot tell us, is if the flight crew, First Officer as well as Captain, would now do things differently - should such circumstances arise again.
They might, they might not. What this report does is examine history. The history shows that all passengers and the aircraft were safe.
Life being what it is, these exact circumstances are unlikely to arise again but if they do, the crew - oy those reading this thread - might act differently. If so, then we have all learnt by this. Slanging those who protected their pax, their fellow crew and their employer's capital equipment AND potentially the lives of people on the ground, will not improve safety.
What this report cannot tell us, is if the flight crew, First Officer as well as Captain, would now do things differently - should such circumstances arise again.
They might, they might not. What this report does is examine history. The history shows that all passengers and the aircraft were safe.
Life being what it is, these exact circumstances are unlikely to arise again but if they do, the crew - oy those reading this thread - might act differently. If so, then we have all learnt by this. Slanging those who protected their pax, their fellow crew and their employer's capital equipment AND potentially the lives of people on the ground, will not improve safety.
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Someone asked above what you'd do if you were at V1 and ATC told you to abort.
I wonder if the results would have changed any if ATC had called to the burning Concorde and told them to abort?
I wonder if the results would have changed any if ATC had called to the burning Concorde and told them to abort?
