Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Pilots Palermo ATR Crash received 10-year sentences

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Pilots Palermo ATR Crash received 10-year sentences

Old 23rd Mar 2009, 17:30
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2
Angry Pilots Palermo ATR Crash received 10-year sentences

I just read the following article on ANSA

Can someone explain why these guys got ten years for just doing their jobs?
And how will this affect further accident investigations? Because everything you will be used against you. Like we can see here.

It worries me.
Emoticon is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 18:21
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 62
Tuninter ATR 72 Crash - 6/Aug/2005 - Crew Sentenced to 10 years Jail

Italian media are reporting that the flight crew of the Tuninter ATR 72 that ditched off Palermo (LICJ) on 6 August 2005 have each been sentenced to 10 years in jail.

7 other Tuninter maintenance and management employees were sentenced to 7-8 years each.

Considering the aircraft ditched due to a fuel gauging problem following installation of an incorrect part number, it seems bizarre that the flight crew bore the brunt of the punishment.

Discuss.
MFALK is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 18:24
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 1,876
I'm presuming this is in Tunisia, not Italy? If the latter, appeal to ECHR might be a possibility.

Given the harshness of the sentence (not to mention fundamental injustice), something IFALPA might want to take on board?
akerosid is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 18:40
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Right here
Age: 48
Posts: 419
No, it's in Italy. A true black spot on European aviation safety for the way it prosecutes following aviation accidents.

However,
All were tried in their absence, and their lawyers said they would appeal
Good luck to them! Everyone who listened to the leaked CVR tape will know those pilots should be hailed as heroes, not trialed like criminals. Absolutely outstanding job, and textbook CRM work.

This is utterly disgusting though:
ANSA quoted the mother of one of the victims, Angela Trentadue, as saying that she was "quite satisfied with the judgement, even though no one can give me my daughter back".
bjornhall is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 19:54
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 239
But remember that in Italy you can get sentenced to ten years but that is only the first sentence. Then the trials and appeals drag on for years and in the end everyone is often acquitted. Thoroughly unpleasant, but this means a sentence doesn't have the same meaning it might have in your own country.
deltayankee is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 20:02
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Not over the Rockies anymore.
Posts: 241
There's got to be some kind of petition we can get going, signatures, something?

IFALPA and the local union, with the backing and support of other unions, will hopefully try to throw their weight around.

Fu%ng bureaucrats!
act700 is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 20:14
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: MXP
Posts: 33
Thumbs down

Worst case: they never set foot in Italy again. I can't see them being extradited by Tunesia. Makes your job a lot more difficult though...
nimbuscumulus is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 20:30
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: LHR
Posts: 458
I executed a Go-Around at a major Italian airport a couple of years ago because despite being cleared to land the guy in front had yet to clear the runway, and in my judgement had no prospect of doing so. Now I am as happy as the next guy to land with one clearing but this was just not even close to do-able. So we went round and informed ATC as to why.

By the time we landed from the second approach the local CAA deputation were ready to meet us for a complete ramp check and lots of questions as to why we had done what we had done. The aircraft was attended by an inordinate number of 'officials', we counted 16 various flavours of police officers at one stage.

I never got to the bottom of the story as we left 2.5 hours later having satisfied the local authorities by filing an ASR by fax to the company in UK with full details, (company requirement anyway ). We thought at the time that ATC might have wished to shift the blame for a lack of separation on finals onto us so preemptively called out the local authorities to investigate. Attack is the best form of defence after all! I even invited the officials to download the FDR data to prove we were flying iaw ATC instructions, but they declined. I have no doubt from my experiences that should there have been ANY suggestion of malpractice or contravention on our part we would have been detained in Italy.

You only have to look around the way they operate to see how backward the place is. This BS procedure with CCTV cameras to check you are ready w/tug before you get your ATC clearance. The apparent turf war that seems to be in progress between ENAC and airport authorities about who controls which bit of the concrete...... A conflict that results in no communication between the two and in no way enhances flight safety. The whole place seems to be a job-creation scheme with each and every official exercising his jealously guarded authority to the max. In the event of any accident or incident in Italy their first reaction is to throw everyone in jail and then start asking questions later. When that enquiry finally happens the emphasis is firmly upon 'who can we hang' rather than what can be learnt.

If you need to divert with a problem, I would strongly recommend one of the more enlightened European nations... unless you want to be thrown in jail.

Mind you, a few thousand Euros in an official back-pocket seems to solve virtually all problems
Magplug is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 20:45
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London
Posts: 390
Regardless of the fairness/unfairness of the judiciary in Italy, what did the accident report say about the cross-checking of the fuel uplift vs fuel gauges? I assume there was a discrepancy?

Not trying to be the devil's advocate here, just not familiar with the details of the accident.

P
Permafrost_ATPL is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 20:52
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 239
Considering the aircraft ditched due to a fuel gauging problem following installation of an incorrect part number, it seems bizarre that the flight crew bore the brunt of the punishment.

Discuss.
I checked the coverage in Italian media. Apparently the position of the court is that it is not the fault of the F/C if the fuel gauge was incorrectly installed but they could have handled the resulting ditching better, saving some lives. The arguments are that they did not warn the pax to prepare for ditching, that they landed with a tailwind across the swells, that the ROD was too high. In addition it was later determined that they could have reached Punta Raisa airport from where they were.

To the public these perhaps sound reasonable arguments, but there is clearly plenty of room for appeal -- especially the flawed logic about what might have been done. A better lawyer might have helped.

For Italian speakers, there is a detailed summary of this in "ATR, Le Cause della Tragedia" from La Repubblica at Atr72, le cause della tragedia | Palermo la Repubblica.it

Last edited by deltayankee; 23rd Mar 2009 at 21:11.
deltayankee is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 22:02
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: london
Posts: 67
Permafrost, if I recall correctly from coverage at the time, it was reported that the crew signed off a fuel uplift of something like just 90 litres for their return trip from Italy to Djerba. So yes......this suggests a discrepancy which could/should have been picked up on before the flight.
saucy jack is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 22:13
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 239
the crew signed off a fuel uplift of something like just 90 litres
According to today's summary of the case in La Repubblica the actual figure was 250kg.
deltayankee is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 03:02
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southern Shores of Lusitania Kingdom
Age: 51
Posts: 692
I didnt know that the crew survived..
JanetFlight is online now  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 06:13
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Soesterberg (NL)
Age: 55
Posts: 61
Final Report

Good day to all,

Here is the final report of ANSV (Italian Aviation Safety Board)
"Accident involved aircraft ATR 72, registration marks TS-LBB
Ditching off the coast of Capo Gallo (Palermo – Sicily), August 6th 2005":

http://www.ansv.it/cgi-bin/eng/FINAL...20ATR%2072.pdf

Good continuation,
Paolo
vonbag is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 08:42
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 57
Posts: 18
If you need to divert with a problem, I would strongly recommend one of the more enlightened European nations... unless you want to be thrown in jail.
Good idea. One of our CPT´s is not able to fly to Italy, as he would go to jail because
of some security bullsh... some years ago.
Baron737 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 09:08
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 203
Well I've just read the conclusions of the report linked to Vonbag and its difficult to justify 10 years from that.

yes the crew did not follow correct procedures (and in particular feathering which would have reduced the rate of drop). But the report admits that although the aircraft theoretically could have made palermo, with only standby instruments and whilst trying to re-start etc it would have been very difficult to do so in practice. The report also concludes that is not clear which direction the plane landed with respect to swell and that the pilot could not determine swell direction and changed course towards some boats to aid rescue efforts (which seems sensible).

Good luck to any appeals
ProM is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 09:09
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: €
Posts: 74
so you're telling us that your "airline" has convicted criminals masquerading as captains actually flying passengers around?

who do you work for again?



lamer is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 09:31
  #18 (permalink)  

Pilots' Pal
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: USA
Age: 61
Posts: 1,158
I checked the coverage in Italian media. Apparently the position of the court is that it is not the fault of the F/C if the fuel gauge was incorrectly installed but they could have handled the resulting ditching better, saving some lives. The arguments are that they did not warn the pax to prepare for ditching, that they landed with a tailwind across the swells, that the ROD was too high. In addition it was later determined that they could have reached Punta Raisa airport from where they were.
The old hindsight bias or what? Lot easier after the fact.
Bus429 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 10:20
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 239
The old hindsight bias or what? Lot easier after the fact
Yup. I am not surprised that the prosecution tried this but I am amazed they made it stick. This kind of sim session only makes sense to learn lessons for the future.
deltayankee is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 10:43
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: europe
Posts: 358
this accident is to be broadcast on national geographics "air accident investigations" next monday. It will be interesting to see how the flight crew are portrayed in the film.

I hope the italian authorities see sense on this one, but I doubt it
bluepilot is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.