Pilots Palermo ATR Crash received 10-year sentences

[glad rag]

Wierd

So the FQI was replaced by a variant from another mark of aircraft, and was not calibrated/functionally tested/fuel zeroed.

I have to say that on reading the report the error is not as simplistic as first thought.

If the misinformation was still available for the inquiry team then it points to the supplier of that information.

However there is still the issue of responsibility for fitting the "wrong" item unquestioningly.

The pilots screwed up OK, but the majority of the error was not theirs.

[RBpilot]

"Did you ever study history?

As somebody already said, we had the Senate and the Coliseum. We invented military tactics that are still used nowdays.....while you were dancing around fires."

this guy made such a stupid and racist comment, i don't even want to talk about it.
I'm italian and i'm proud to be, but i really can't stand this stupid comments...

"Dear Crossfitter,
Could you please tell us what is your flight experience?"

Dude you are probably a brand new 22 years old CFI with 800 hrs on cessna's on your back, i guess that makes you an authority in aviation . When you'll be a real pilot and you'll get to fly real airplanes then you would be able to ask (with that cocky tone) about somebody else flight experience but now you should have a look at your flight experience first.

"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[MarcoAER]

for RBPilot: last time I checked my logbook showed 4 digits. I've been instructing for the past 4 years. Over 2000 hrs to be exact.

You don't have to be a CFI to ask about some other people experience, especially with such stupid comments.
Sometimes I am wondering if some people are just hiding behind a computer. They comment without having even been close to a flight deck.

What's your "REAL" experience, buddy?

My comment wasn't racist. It was a FACT. This forum is made of PROFESSIONALS.
PROFESSIONALS want FACTS.
It seems like all I can see are OLD JOKES and SAYINGS about Italians that don't depict the reality.

We have many problems in Italy. We also have many good things. Like all other countries.

In today's technology. Most of the accidents happen because of BASIC HUMAN mistakes. STUFF that I teach everyday: aka (FUEL DISCREPANCY = USE THE DRIPSTICK).

You don't need 5 type ratings to understand that. The Aircraft can bite for the most simple reasons.

[RBpilot]

"My comment wasn't racist. It was a FACT. This forum is made of PROFESSIONALS.
PROFESSIONALS want FACTS."

This one was his comment:


"Did you ever study history?

As somebody already said, we had the Senate and the Coliseum. We invented military tactics that are still used nowdays.....while you were dancing around fires."

all the ppruners are willing and anxious to know that the italians invented military tactics and built the coliseum while others where dancing around fires (hey guys this is because professionals want FACTS!!! and it's not a racist comment!!!)


"for RBPilot: last time I checked my logbook showed 4 digits. I've been instructing for the past 4 years. Over 2000 hrs to be exact."

Still, with that background you are a newborn in aviation. Expecially if those 2000 hrs are cessna's hrs.


"You don't have to be a CFI to ask about some other people experience, especially with such stupid comments.
Sometimes I am wondering if some people are just hiding behind a computer. They comment without having even been close to a flight deck."

Who's hiding behind a computer?
What about you? have you ever been close to a flight deck?

"What's your "REAL" experience, buddy?"

At this point i guessed you haven't learned the lesson at all Captain, that's the problem with some wannabes like you, they think they got it all.

[MarcoAER]

"What's your "REAL" experience, buddy?"

You still haven't answered MY question, Skipper.

[captplaystation]

You don't have to even have a pilot's licence to know where this went wrong, a kid with a calculator could work it out.

Intended departure fuel minus arrival fuel, convert to litres, that is the expected uplift. If the actual uplift is much different to that, start asking questions.
The duff fuel readings merely served to hide what an enquiring mind (or at least the application of sensible cross-checks as a minimum ) should have noticed.
After the flameout, we have what sounds like exemplary behaviour by the crew, not in any way helped by crap ATC. Don't see there is much more to say.

[cavok_italy]

And instead od crying to the injustice, check news before commenting.

Those pilots have been prosecuted (and they haven't been phisically in jail) because they advise the cabin crewat the last moment of the ditching, not on the prescribed times. And they could also do a better job. There have been a trial for that.
One more thing: what do you think if you fill your car with 10 liters of fuel, for going 1500 kms? That a miracle has gone and you can leave trusting they will last?

Italy is the country of burocracy, I agree. But not of the injustice, at least not more than any other country.

There are people who can't go back into the USA just because they didn't pay a parking spot fine....

So, be smarter with your comments...

[virginblue]

I find it unhelpful that you guys get carried away by the "10 year" aspect of the sentence. Unless you are learned Italian legal scholars, you are most likely not in a position to comment whether the sentence is out of line with Italian sentencing standards. That someone would get a one-year suspended jail sentence in your country for a certain crime does not necessarily mean that it must be the same anywhere else. I would see your point if a 16 times manslaughter "usually" results in a much more lenient sentence in Italy, but nobody has made this point so far (and probably lacks the knowledge to do so). Also nobody knows how sentencing works in cases of multiple convictions. It could just as well be that the sentences for each single case are added up, but not each single sentence will be served. So it might be time to get off the high horse until you have gotten some insight into Italian criminal law and its application by the courts - rather than jumping to conclusions by reading what papers write.

[bjornhall]

So it might be time to get off the high horse until you have gotten some insight into Italian criminal law and its application by the courts - rather than jumping to conclusions by reading what papers write.

The sentence is wrong, whether it is in line with Italian law or not. That they were even put on trial is wrong. If it is actually correct according to current Italian criminal law, then that is a fault with the law.

The criticism that many of us voice in this thread is directed against the Italian legal system; both the laws themselves and how the laws are applied. The simple fact that the crew was put on trial and convicted is sufficient knowledge of the Italian judical system to make that assessment. Calling Italy a third world country in that respect might be a bit unfair to third world countries; many of them actually follow Annex 13.

That Italian law is in violation of Annex 13 is an opinion shared by, among many others, both the Italian, the French and the Tunisian accident investigation boards. They would know, wouldn't they?

Finally, you might wish to recall that the thread started as an outcry against what the papers wrote. Rather, it is those who insist the accident was a result of the crews' failures who parrot the newspapers.

[tarjet fixated]

bjornhall,

how not to quote you 100% ?!?!?
As an italian I think I can happily state that we are talking about a 3rd world country in many ways, and our judicial system is one of them for sure (3 very questionable aviation related sentences in the past few years from the LIN accident to the CAG conviction of 2 ATCO to this one we are talking about and I'm not mentioning the ongoing pathetic investigation about the Cessna crash out of CIA).

The FSF has filed an official complaint this issue and I'm afraid change can only come from outside the country.

[Riu]

here the actual FDR of the ditching

TAKEOFF TUBE - Voice recorder Tunisair ditching


it is written tuniser but it is actually tuninter.. to you the commets.

[vonbag]

Cavok_Italy -

[...]
...they advise the cabin crewat the last moment of the ditching, not on the prescribed times.
[...]

In the Final Report, at page 162 and under point 2.4 (pg. 169-170) "Operations in Passenger Cabin", it is written that, descending through 12.000 feet, the captain ordered the senior flight attendant to prepare for ditching...
In the partial CVR audio -- that lasts only about ( < ) 5 minutes (when impact sound is heard) -- we all could hear,
as the captain says (again) back to the Cabin about 2 minutes before ditching:
" Preparé pour emergency, ditching... "
he appears to be interrupted by the ATC transmission.
I have been listening to this partial recording many times. It only spreads over 5 minutes and I could not interpret (I could make up only a few words , apart from what is already written in the Final Report) what was said by ATC.

It would be very interesting to have the complete CVR transcript, like already asked by others.
Do you know if this is available?
Thank you in advance.

[Capvermell]

I find it unhelpful that you guys get carried away by the "10 year" aspect of the sentence. Unless you are learned Italian legal scholars, you are most likely not in a position to comment whether the sentence is out of line with Italian sentencing standards. That someone would get a one-year suspended jail sentence in your country for a certain crime does not necessarily mean that it must be the same anywhere else. I would see your point if a 16 times manslaughter "usually" results in a much more lenient sentence in Italy, but nobody has made this point so far (and probably lacks the knowledge to do so). Also nobody knows how sentencing works in cases of multiple convictions.

A ten year sentence (especially if it means actually getting out of jail after say five years) would be perfectly reasonable for a genuine act of manslaughter that had killed 16 people. The problem though is that any failings committed by the pilot and co-pilot here in no way constitute manslaughter (also how the hell did the co-pilot get the same sentence and not only half the sentence applied to the captain who clearly carries the final can for any acts of negligence that did occur). The only suitable charge here in respect of any of the parties involved is one of negligence, since whilst the end consequence of the chain of events was a crash and many deaths there was no reasonable possibility of any of the parties involved being able to see in advance that the death of others was a possible end consequence of any failings committed on their part. Neither pilot acted anywhere nearly culpably enough to be charged with anything criminal and certainly nothing more than negligence.

Numerous other pilots must have left an airport without managing to find a missing fuel docket and then not used the tanks dipstick and not had this happen to them (because in their case an inaccurate fuel guage was not also part of the picture) and the Gimli Glider and Air Transat guys were ultimately considered heroes, even though there was some initial attempt to discipline them in both cases for failing to follow procedure. The difference between any errors committed by these pilots or those in the Gimli Glider or Air Transat cases are pretty indistinguishable and it is only the difference in the outcome (i.e. nobody killed in those cases) that is the main difference in the sanctions applied. Also the manner of the final ditching (near perfectly executed despite the break up of the plane) actually saved some lives. If these guys had screwed that part up they would have been beyond any punishment by the courts.

I do hope this will get appealed to the European Court of Human Rights and gets overturned and that these guys are soon freed from jail and at most banned from flying for three years or something. Since although they made a mistake I'm perfectly sure they would actually be some of the safest pilots in Tunisia around if they ever given their licences back. I do agree that the actions here seem thoroughly racist and that I highly doubt that if Alitalia had been involved that any of the people considered responsible would have received more then suspended sentences.

I also wonder how many of the judges responsible for this sentence had still nonetheless managed to run out fuel in their own cars. There are not many of us who have driven for 30 years who have not run out of fuel, which says to me that this kind of human error is really not that difficult to make.

EDIT:- Reading more it would seem the pilot and co-pilot and the officials of the airline are not actually in jail and Tunisia will not extradite them. So can we presume that to some extent all the sentences here are a token political gesture for the Italian media by the judiciary to be seen to be doing about the deaths of Italian citizens on an African airline but were imposed safe in the knowledge that none of the individuals sentenced would actually serve any time in jail. Of course that doesn't make the verdicts right or acceptable though.

What has happened to the pilot and co-pilot now? Are they even fit to fly again yet and did the Tunisian government rescind their pilot licences either temporarily or permanently?

[Teddy Robinson]

here here

very well put

[Capvermell]

Does anyone know if any of the Italian passengers on the plane were relatives of and/or were in some other way connected with any senior politicians or members of the judiciary in Italy?

The Alaska Airlines failed jackscrew caused crash strikes me as an event where the actions of certain maintenance employees were much closer to being deserving a charge of manslaughter but where no such charges were ever brought.

[captplaystation]

Seems to me the blame , if any exists, needs to be put on the "REGULATORY AUTHORITIES " Ha Ha! ! " in this case Tunisia, for allowing this airline to operate with a tech-log & procedures that did not call for a simple cross-check /reconciliation of the fuel uplifted vs what you expected to uplift.
It isn't complicated, every reputable company I flew for had it, and the ones who didn't ? well, you just answered your own question.

Anyhow, glasshouses/stones and all that.
Ask the dolts in ENAC (Yes ITALY! ! ) how they allowed Capt's in Blue Banana to fly MXP/Tel Aviv with an unusable centre tank on a B734 without tech stopping, and indeed to enter in the tech-log gems like . . . Fuel on departure 9200kg/ fuel burned 13000kg ! ? only 10 yrs ago, do you think anything changed Never could find the air-to-air fuelling probe on the external check
Not to even mention the cock-up with SAS in MXP, I don't think they should really shout too loudly about air safety, as they did after Flash Airlines, holier than thou indeed, thought ENAC was in Roma last time I visited, not Vatican City. . . .wanna discuss the Alpi Eagles "twin " tech-logs etc etc ? ? No, better not, and all the scum involved in all this, are still DOV's or still active in the administration, who said Mafioso ?

[Capvermell]

and all the scum involved in all this, are still DOV's or still active in the administration, who said Mafioso?

Believing that somebody must be made the public fall guy so as to protect the backs of others who are more powerful and better connected also strikes me as a distinctly Italian solution.

Of course the French BEA are no better in respect of the Concorde crash where the most blatantly guilty parties are not prosecuted because they are French whereas any foreigner involved in any kind of peripheral way can be hauled to court for the most trivial level of indirect involvement,

Perhaps the time has come for an EU wide aviation safety body to rival the NTSB.

[quickturnaround]

Dear Collegues,

I am very curious to hear/read the motivation of the judge in this rather harsh verdict, is it available on any webside?

Thanks, QTA

[ATC Watcher]

What has happened to the pilot and co-pilot now? Are they even fit to fly again yet and did the Tunisian government rescind their pilot licences either temporarily or permanently?

Capt Gharbi was seriously injured by the crash and remained medically unfit for 2 years after it. . He is now a sim instructor and is fighting to get back his licence , IFALPA has lauched a campain trying to help him get back his flight privileges.
F/O Kebaier has been re-employed by Sevenair ( the follower of Tunitair) since 2007 and is still F/O with them ( or was the last time I saw him in Spring last year ) .

[stphen]

bird control

its really intolerable listening to these type of incidents. its amazing that what consideration they are giving to their pilots training.