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CNN Reports FEDEX crash in Tokyo

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CNN Reports FEDEX crash in Tokyo

Old 5th Feb 2010, 13:39
  #481 (permalink)  
 
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Payload

When this MD-11 was loaded with freight would there be less rigour in a place like China as to the total mass of the load.

If the load was more than what was stated on the paperwork would the crew have known at take-off?

So
1. Was the payload correct? Was it balanced?

2. Are ALL ground facilities competent in measuring payload?

3. If the load was different than the paperwork stated would the crew have known at take off?
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Old 5th Feb 2010, 14:00
  #482 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wingview
At Faro the decent rate was lower, but landed only on the RMLG which (with a high G-force) broke, wingtip hit the surface and the rest is history.

I recently spoke to a MD11 cpt who is also curios about this accident (due to the very high bounce), but also the ZSPD one.
One of the big causes of the Faro accident was the reducing of thrust to idle at 150 feet leading to a descent rate of 1000'/min which could not be arrested during a last second intervention of power by the captain(they were in a thunderstorm at the time).

Apparently the landing technique on the DC-10 with and without CWS is significantly different and the fact that the CWS was turned off quite low may have led to the abrupt flare.
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Old 5th Feb 2010, 14:58
  #483 (permalink)  
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The AT retardation is easlily overridden IMO, and in and of it's self should not be a factor assuming your hand is on the throttles to begin with.
Here's the problem - you're teaching your hand to override an automatic system.

And an MD-10 in a crosswind is a totally different beast. Much higher control forces. Throw in a female pilot and I think it's easy to predict - both hands on the yoke. Then the A/T's do their thing at 50 feet and you're sitting there at idle power with lots of yaw-induced drag.

MD was fixated on the A/T's with this airplane. I had an MD ground instructor tell me - the initial concept was no throttles at all - just a push-button engine system.

So, to answer the question, I'd say 90 % of the pilots I fly with never click off the A/T's on the MD11, ever. They override them when they feel the need.
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Old 5th Feb 2010, 15:12
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I do not see any problem in overriding the AT's in this case and I would agree that most pilots tend to use the AT's through the touchdown and this is very comon in some Boeing aircraft.

As I recall you moving on up to the 777 soon. The AT system in the this airplane is very similar to the MD11 although it may react just a little quicker. Point here is that just becasue you have the automation working does not mean that you are not part of the solution in getting the airplane on the ground.

Where I flew the MD11 we encouraged the pilots that if they were inclined to turn off the AT's prior to touchdown, go ahaed and do it around 1000' AGL and get into the stck and rudder mode early in the game, thus not clicking them off at 100' and finding yourself not part of the game.
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Old 5th Feb 2010, 17:26
  #485 (permalink)  
 
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Was The Payload Accurate?

Is there a way to check if this MD-11 was carrying the weight it was supposed to be carrying?

The way posters are scooting around this question means it may be difficult to answer.
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Old 6th Feb 2010, 04:25
  #486 (permalink)  
 
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Md11 Ats

The recommendation from MDC (now Boeing) is that if the ATS is available, it SHOULD be used. This is different from the BAC philosophy - if AP is disconnected, ATS should also be disconnected.

Our company follows the MDC recommendation, so ATS generally always engaged.

Way back when... my IOE instructor was a MDC test pilot with the MD11 program and he also stated that if MDC had their way, the MD11 would have be installed with only start switches and no throttle levers per sic.
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 21:32
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Derg,

All FDX ramps throughout the network use the same W&B procedures same ppwk for DG etc,you also have two ramp agents doing the W&B(P.S.T)
as for finding out the weight of each ULD&pos the origin station would have a printout of the maindeck&lower deck config and closeout slips for each ULD(including weight, dest etc)
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Old 10th Feb 2010, 03:32
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Weapons Hot

Based on the history of the MD-11, might have turned out better if MDC built it with throttles and no start switches.

GF
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Old 10th Feb 2010, 17:15
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Auto Thrust

Hi, just wanted to mention that in my company almost nobody is flying the approaches on the MD11 with autothrust. That means: very, very close to a 100%. That is the philosophy here in my company.

Also I would like to mention that there are speeds that need to be added during the approach at gusty or strong winds that might add up pretty significantly to the Vref. Just because this was stated further up (170 to 154kts Vapp ).

For me the MD11 is a very sporty aircraft and operating it, you all the time seem to be on the edge of the performance envelope.
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Old 11th Feb 2010, 07:36
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Unless I'm doing an auto-land [CAT-II, CAT-IIIb] . . . I click off the automatics and hand fly the approach with my left hand on the wheel, and I move my 4 thrust levers with my right hand. Why? Because it feels good to be doing something after 12 hours of doing nothing. Get it?
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Old 11th Feb 2010, 19:35
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Glueball - Obvious Problem

Glueball
Your problems are obvious:
The MD11 has THROTTLES (not thrust levers) and only THREE (not four).
(All said with tongue firmly in cheek)

Spooky 2
to answer your question (ATS and X-winds):
There are no restrictions, either in FCOM Limitations or Normal Operating Procedures requiring ATS to be disconnected with ANY cross-wind.
Having said that, here is an autopilot auto-land cross-wind limitation of 15 knots (max) (nothing to do with ATS).

Huck
I agree with you about overriding the ATS when necessary. What I have experienced is that the younger ones have their eyeballs glued to the speed trend and over-react to the trend (not the actual airspeed variances) by use of a fist-full of throttle and then massive and fast throttle retardation, instead of letting the ATS sort it out, which, for 99.9% of the time, does so without me getting an off-the-scale pukka factor.
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Old 13th Feb 2010, 21:28
  #492 (permalink)  
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In a strong crosswind, it is highly recommended to carry power all the way to touchdown. The autothrottles will reduce power at the programmed RA, regardless of cross-control induced drag and/or remaining elevator authority. With control wheel and rudder input approaching maximum throw at crosswind landing limits, said premature power reduction results in a landing very similar to that experienced by a set of car keys tossed out a fifth-story window.

Disconnect, or prevent them from retarding (a counter-intuitive push in my opinion).

Either that,or carry extra speed. The beast is already a very fast lander, even the longest runways sometimes become short, not my first choice.
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Old 14th Feb 2010, 00:42
  #493 (permalink)  
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My sentiments exactly....
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Old 14th Feb 2010, 08:51
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Overweight

No result from investigation yet BUT.....

This aircraft looks overweight to me.
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Old 14th Feb 2010, 17:07
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DERG,

and you come to that conclusion from what exactly?
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Old 15th Feb 2010, 16:19
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Seems to arrive at a hell of a speed and rate of fall....hard to believe that this was a FedEx with all the experience they have with this machine.

As it bounces on the first touch you would expect a full throttle application and a go around. If this was a cowboy outfit I could rest easy.
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Old 18th Feb 2010, 04:47
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Overweight?

DERG

Okay, I'll bite - how do you form the view of it being overweight?

I am sure FDX has checks/x-checks, ticks in boxes, etc. to ensure that ALL structural limitations are not exceeded for all phases of flight, including MLW. Reputable trash-haulers ensure the correct mass is loaded into the correct position. (That is not to say, that on occasion, the system is let down by the humans). I do not work for FDX (hence I do not know their loading system) but I would need a lot of convincing to change my opinion that the flight was anything but within limitations.

With the AQP/FIDS systems installed on the MD11, it would be a very brave pilot (or cowboy) that would intentionally land overweight; the soon-to-be arranged "fireside chat" would definitely get interesting.

I'll entertain quite a few theories and rumours with respect to this accident, but I'll pass on it being an overweight landing (unless you think a >1.0g IVTG counts as being "overweight").
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Old 18th Feb 2010, 20:23
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weapons hot

having worked for FDX for over eight years in ground ops two ramp agents do the W&B and it's x checked,the ULD's are checked for airworthyness before loading begins they are then checked again before been loaded onto the acft.

and all FDX locations use the same system through out the network.
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Old 18th Feb 2010, 22:48
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It wasn't overweight. And CG was normal.
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Old 19th Feb 2010, 01:28
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Is overweight even possible?

Please somebody explain if if is at all probable that an MD11 having flown 2600 km from KOW (Guangzhou, China) could be overweight on landing at NRT.
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