EK407 Tailstrike @ ML
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Raincoast
Overrun
I will back up White Knight unequivocally. He is correct. The crew remained in Melbourne, pending arrival of EK Flight Safety personnel, and the EK the A340 Tech Pilot who will overlap with the Aussies to investigate.
I will back up White Knight unequivocally. He is correct. The crew remained in Melbourne, pending arrival of EK Flight Safety personnel, and the EK the A340 Tech Pilot who will overlap with the Aussies to investigate.
Guest
Posts: n/a
China Airlines Flight CI611, Boeing Model 747, B-18255
Link to FAA site on the structural repair of a China Airlines 747, as a result of a tail strike, that failed 22 years later.
Lessons Learned From Transport Airplane Accidents
Lessons Learned From Transport Airplane Accidents
Pilots' Pal
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 1,158
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From: USA
Grunty,
The accident report you refer to also mentioned - at the risk of thread drift -that China Airlines maintenance planning/MRO had failed to address re-inspections of the repaired area and CPCP (inspections for corrosion) requirements. Typical chain.
The accident report you refer to also mentioned - at the risk of thread drift -that China Airlines maintenance planning/MRO had failed to address re-inspections of the repaired area and CPCP (inspections for corrosion) requirements. Typical chain.
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Wingham NSW Australia
Failures after tail scrapes
I am sure the lessons learnt following the loss of the JAL B747, as a result of an improper repair to the rear pressure bulkhead following a tailscrape, will be uppermost in the minds of those charged with repairing the Airbus.
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: West Country
An AA 767 in London landed on the nose gear and did a massive amount of damage to the fuselage - a few big plates bolted on externally and then ferried back to Mr Boeing in Seattle.
"The INTRODUCER"
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 437
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From: London
Sparks
Thanks for that Phoenix62 - nice contribution.
I've been curious about the sparks reported by other pax - seems clear that there were sparks of some sort. That was leading me to think about the engines, but you seem to suggest that what you saw was very late on in the take-off run - perhaps at the point of impact with whatever structure was hit? And perhaps due to that impact in fact?
I've been curious about the sparks reported by other pax - seems clear that there were sparks of some sort. That was leading me to think about the engines, but you seem to suggest that what you saw was very late on in the take-off run - perhaps at the point of impact with whatever structure was hit? And perhaps due to that impact in fact?
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 775
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From: near EDDF
Originally Posted by phoenix62
I was a passenger on this flight ...
... I was in the rear of the cabin at seat 34C ...
... there were visible sparks from the window near me.
... I was in the rear of the cabin at seat 34C ...
... there were visible sparks from the window near me.
Do you sit in the aisle?
Visible sparks seen through the window?
It is impossible to see the sparks of a tail strike through the window.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,103
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From: Chabanais, France
On the subject of sparks etc. At night any source of light will probably be visible from the passenger windows as a reflection from the aircraft, (White) and the ground, as with an engine surge, everything around the aircraft lights up at night but, from the cockpit, you don't actually see the flames. I suspect that what the pax saw was the reflected light caused by the sparks, not the sparks themselves?
Joined: Oct 1998
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From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Its not that hard to get distracted during flight prep by pursers, redcaps, refuellers, engineers etc all sticking their heads into the cockpit, although MEL is probably not as manic as DXB. This was highlighted during the recent LOSA audit, but it seems nothing was done about it.
I have fallen prey to the "ZFW as TOW" gotcha and had it picked up by the FO or relief crew. Not only embarrassing but quite shocking when you consider the implications.
Now I estimate my Vref30 (Boeing) at preflight briefing based on the planned TOW. It's quieter and there are no distractions to mess with my already poor mathematical skills. I used to check my green dot speed (Airbus) as I recall we had a procedure to cross check it prior to entering the speeds in the FMGC. If my calculated speed is more than a few knots off the FMC/FMGC speed, I want to know why.
For A330 it was something like, Green dot = (TOWx0.6)+107 (This figure has to be increased one knot per thousand feet above FL200, but for takeoff this is obviously not necessary). It's quoted in Vol 3 from memory so you can check the reference.
e.g. TOW of 230t, green dot should be (230x.6)+107 = 245
For Boeing, Vref30 = (GW/3)+66 (this is accurate for the 777-300ER but will vary a few knots for other models).
e.g. TOW of 300t, Vref 30 should be (300/3)+66 = 166
I have fallen prey to the "ZFW as TOW" gotcha and had it picked up by the FO or relief crew. Not only embarrassing but quite shocking when you consider the implications.
Now I estimate my Vref30 (Boeing) at preflight briefing based on the planned TOW. It's quieter and there are no distractions to mess with my already poor mathematical skills. I used to check my green dot speed (Airbus) as I recall we had a procedure to cross check it prior to entering the speeds in the FMGC. If my calculated speed is more than a few knots off the FMC/FMGC speed, I want to know why.
For A330 it was something like, Green dot = (TOWx0.6)+107 (This figure has to be increased one knot per thousand feet above FL200, but for takeoff this is obviously not necessary). It's quoted in Vol 3 from memory so you can check the reference.
e.g. TOW of 230t, green dot should be (230x.6)+107 = 245
For Boeing, Vref30 = (GW/3)+66 (this is accurate for the 777-300ER but will vary a few knots for other models).
e.g. TOW of 300t, Vref 30 should be (300/3)+66 = 166
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Seat 1A
It is impossible to see the sparks of a tail strike through the window.
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Smogsville
Emirates must use the same seating system as CX, the seats are all based on 3 - 4 - 3 seating system so ABC - DEFG - HJK however if you're on an Airbus where the layout is 2 - 4 - 2 in EY the seats go AC - DEFG - HK that way window and aisle seats are always the same, in all CX A/C A & K are window seats, CDGH are aisle seats, so 34C is the left widow group aisle seat, one seat from the window.
Edit: EK is not like CX though.
Edit: EK is not like CX though.
Last edited by SMOC; 25th March 2009 at 03:35.
Joined: Sep 2008
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From: South Africa
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 775
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From: near EDDF
Originally Posted by SMOC
I don't know about Emirates but all CX seats are all based on 3 - 4 - 3 seating so ABC - DEFG - HJK however if your on an CX airbus where the layout is 2 - 4 - 2 in EY the seats go AC - DEFG - HK that way window and isle seats are always the same, in all CX A/C A & K are windows CDGH are isle seats, so 34C is the left widow group isle seat.
Emirates | Flying with Emirates | Our Fleet | Seating Chart
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 420
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From: In the Old Folks' Home
Sanity Check Required
I have fallen prey to the "ZFW as TOW" gotcha and had it picked up by the FO or relief crew. Not only embarrassing but quite shocking when you consider the implications.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 39
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From: @Work
Did this crew fly this type plane to MEL? If so, they should have gotten something close to the same Vr that they got on that outbound leg
Not necessarily. Probably 2 of the crewmembers omboard had been on a "short" hop over to New Zealand between the outbound leg and the leg to DXB with a comparably light aircraft.
AA
Not necessarily. Probably 2 of the crewmembers omboard had been on a "short" hop over to New Zealand between the outbound leg and the leg to DXB with a comparably light aircraft.
AA
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 420
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From: In the Old Folks' Home
Basic Airmanship
Not necessarily. Probably 2 of the crewmembers omboard had been on a "short" hop over to New Zealand between the outbound leg and the leg to DXB with a comparably light aircraft.