The paying back of outstanding bond money, advice please
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The paying back of outstanding bond money, advice please
I am currently working my notice at my present company with approx 6 months of a monthly reducing 3 year bond to pay back.
When asked how I intend to settle the outstanding amount I said that I would set up
a standing order for the balance split into equal payments proportionate to the monthly amount by which the bond reduces so that on the third anniversary of the date I was type rated we will be all square.
My company have since come back to me and said that they want the whole lot back in one steaming lump or they will pursue me through the courts.
There is nothing in the bond agreement relating to this and I have asked them to check with the company solicitors to see if this demand is legal. I have said if they were to pursue me through the court and I offered to pay in installments far lower and over a longer period than
I have so far suggested they would have to take it anyway as I am NOT refusing to pay.
Any comments and/or advice on this matter will be greatfully recieved.
It's enough to put you off oranges for life !
When asked how I intend to settle the outstanding amount I said that I would set up
a standing order for the balance split into equal payments proportionate to the monthly amount by which the bond reduces so that on the third anniversary of the date I was type rated we will be all square.
My company have since come back to me and said that they want the whole lot back in one steaming lump or they will pursue me through the courts.
There is nothing in the bond agreement relating to this and I have asked them to check with the company solicitors to see if this demand is legal. I have said if they were to pursue me through the court and I offered to pay in installments far lower and over a longer period than
I have so far suggested they would have to take it anyway as I am NOT refusing to pay.
Any comments and/or advice on this matter will be greatfully recieved.
It's enough to put you off oranges for life !
Guest
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Not sure of the precise statutes on this, but I can tell you a friend of mine had an almost identical problem some years back. It went to court and he won the right to pay back in instalments - either that or they might have settled out of court, although I think it was the former. If I'm right in that recollection, then the law of precedent ought to be on your side, but do not construe this as legal advice!!!!
Hope it goes OK - the new job better be worth all this hassle, right?!
Hope it goes OK - the new job better be worth all this hassle, right?!
Guest
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If you only have one-sixth of a three year
bond left to pay, then working on the assumption that your bond was say £15000, it
would thus seem that your repayment is a
max of two and a half grand. This is a bit
more than beer money but without knowing all
the facts you might be well advised to pay
the company off and be done with it. On the
other hand,your existing company will be very
reluctant to go to court especially if you
are quite prepared to pay the outstanding
amount in full albeit in instalments. You may
well find that whoever has threatened you with a court case has little or no knowledge
of the law and may well not have taken any legal advice.
Why not call their bluff - offer a written
undertaking as outlined in your posting, keep
your head down till the final day and enjoy
the new job wherever it may be.
bond left to pay, then working on the assumption that your bond was say £15000, it
would thus seem that your repayment is a
max of two and a half grand. This is a bit
more than beer money but without knowing all
the facts you might be well advised to pay
the company off and be done with it. On the
other hand,your existing company will be very
reluctant to go to court especially if you
are quite prepared to pay the outstanding
amount in full albeit in instalments. You may
well find that whoever has threatened you with a court case has little or no knowledge
of the law and may well not have taken any legal advice.
Why not call their bluff - offer a written
undertaking as outlined in your posting, keep
your head down till the final day and enjoy
the new job wherever it may be.
Guest
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MonkeyBall
Your offer is an eminently fair one and, I venture to suggest, will undoubtedly be seen to be such in a court of law. The law is essentially about "reasonableness" and it does seem to me that your employer is showing very little of same.
My advice, for what it is worth, is that you should tell your employer to get on with it and take you to court. Point out to them that it will be a waste of their money but will certainly keep their lawyers happy.
Good luck, old bean. Hope your next employer is less of an a******e.
Your offer is an eminently fair one and, I venture to suggest, will undoubtedly be seen to be such in a court of law. The law is essentially about "reasonableness" and it does seem to me that your employer is showing very little of same.
My advice, for what it is worth, is that you should tell your employer to get on with it and take you to court. Point out to them that it will be a waste of their money but will certainly keep their lawyers happy.
Good luck, old bean. Hope your next employer is less of an a******e.
Guest
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Monkeyball, if you actually want to pay off your bond I reckon your approach is bullet proof, the company will be wasting it's money on legal fees if it tries to fight you on your more than reasonable offer.
However bear in mind that it is by no means clear that bonds are legally enforceable in the UK at all. Indeed there is a view that a bond constitutes an "Illegal Indenture", and is thus fundamentally uninforceable. This does not, of course, affect the possibility of your name becoming associated with "bond breaking" if you choose to go down that road.
Are you a BALPA member? I sincerely hope so, for problems like this are what you pay your subscriptions for. They will helop you with legal advice if you are a member. If not, be wise and join toute de suite, ready fot the next shafting...
Good luck, and remember, Nix Illegitime Carborundum!
However bear in mind that it is by no means clear that bonds are legally enforceable in the UK at all. Indeed there is a view that a bond constitutes an "Illegal Indenture", and is thus fundamentally uninforceable. This does not, of course, affect the possibility of your name becoming associated with "bond breaking" if you choose to go down that road.
Are you a BALPA member? I sincerely hope so, for problems like this are what you pay your subscriptions for. They will helop you with legal advice if you are a member. If not, be wise and join toute de suite, ready fot the next shafting...
Good luck, and remember, Nix Illegitime Carborundum!
Guest
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Monkeyball theres no worries there mate.You are quite prepared to repay the bond and that will stand in your favour.With regards to a human rights issue you can nominate a period to repay the outstanding sums within reason.No court will enforce bankrupting a person with a matter that is questionable to begin with.Remember a speeding fine can also be paid of in installments should you require it. (which i agree with, let them sweat for the money)So should this silly greedy company of yours want to take you to court let them, it'll only cost them alot more money than you presently owe on the bond.Its called steamrolling and has been outlawed for decades as it is percieved as threatening which could lead to stress which in turn could lead to you suing the company for distress and loss of earnings, which will cost them alot more money.I'am no lawyer but its how i see it and what i read about.It's all just a crock of s**t.
Guest
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No company will bother to take anyone to court for a couple of grand that they will get in six months anyway.
Whoever your company is would be well advised
to reword bond agreement to make repayment
terms clear. Once this is done I would have no sympathy for anyone arguing with the terms of a deal they have signed up with.
Guest
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That is a typical "orange" attitude, you are not alone. Keep firing possible solutions at them. Two of my good friends from down under left them less than 12 months ago and made several suggestions for repayment of bond money. They turned down every single one of them no matter how reasonable, I guess they do not want to set a precedent. In the end the courts sided with them for their "good faith effort" Think about enlisting the help of your new employer, they may not assist directly however they may be able to suggest some legal counsel for you.
[This message has been edited by RRtay (edited 30 March 2001).]
[This message has been edited by RRtay (edited 30 March 2001).]
Guest
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Dear Chap,
It just so happens I had exactly this problem about 2yrs ago with an old employer of mine.
They insisted I pay back all the outstanding bond in one lump sum. After I sought council on this matter it appears that if you don't have all money, and you agree on the amount owed AND you have offered a monthly payment, there is no case to answer to.
Just so you're sure, this is exactly what I went through. If you need legal advice I can point you in the right direction to a chap recommended by the IPA. Just let me know here.
Above all, remember, if you agree on the amount owed, there is no case.
Good luck old chap............
It just so happens I had exactly this problem about 2yrs ago with an old employer of mine.
They insisted I pay back all the outstanding bond in one lump sum. After I sought council on this matter it appears that if you don't have all money, and you agree on the amount owed AND you have offered a monthly payment, there is no case to answer to.
Just so you're sure, this is exactly what I went through. If you need legal advice I can point you in the right direction to a chap recommended by the IPA. Just let me know here.
Above all, remember, if you agree on the amount owed, there is no case.
Good luck old chap............
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Monkeyball
You don't say the country where you are employed although other postings seem to hint it is the UK.
The only advice you should act upon is the advice of a good aviation lawyer. If you are in the UK go to a solicitor and ask him to seek an opinion from someone like Flying Lawyer (his profile will give you his name) Your solicitor will know how to find him.
You will get considerable advice and moral support from contributors to this thread but at the end of the day you must seek profesional advice.
Alternatively, if you are in the UK and belong to Balpa seek their help.
You don't say the country where you are employed although other postings seem to hint it is the UK.
The only advice you should act upon is the advice of a good aviation lawyer. If you are in the UK go to a solicitor and ask him to seek an opinion from someone like Flying Lawyer (his profile will give you his name) Your solicitor will know how to find him.
You will get considerable advice and moral support from contributors to this thread but at the end of the day you must seek profesional advice.
Alternatively, if you are in the UK and belong to Balpa seek their help.
Guest
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Dear Chap
I note the preceding post and its supposedly virtuous comment. However, I really must emphasise that there is absolutely no need whatsoever for you to consult with expensive lawyers on this matter (unless you have more money than sense).
Should your present employers proceed against you, then it might be wise to do so, but only after you receive the paperwork advising that you are off to court.
And I see no compelling reason why you should look to "Flying Lawyer" or anyone else mentioned on these pages (after all, we really know nothing about them other than what is "rumoured" here). Just a plain and simple solicitor will do for it is not a difficult matter.
Have no fear my friend. On the facts you have provided here, you will most certainly win any case brought against you by this totally unreasonable employer.
Again, good luck in your new employment.
I note the preceding post and its supposedly virtuous comment. However, I really must emphasise that there is absolutely no need whatsoever for you to consult with expensive lawyers on this matter (unless you have more money than sense).
Should your present employers proceed against you, then it might be wise to do so, but only after you receive the paperwork advising that you are off to court.
And I see no compelling reason why you should look to "Flying Lawyer" or anyone else mentioned on these pages (after all, we really know nothing about them other than what is "rumoured" here). Just a plain and simple solicitor will do for it is not a difficult matter.
Have no fear my friend. On the facts you have provided here, you will most certainly win any case brought against you by this totally unreasonable employer.
Again, good luck in your new employment.
Guest
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Monketball.
what you have stated above seems quite reasonable. Your offfer to pay by installments should be accepted.
However, if, in preceding discussions with your company you offered to pay, say £50 per month on an outstanding Bond in excess of £2000, and if , when the company declined your offer you told them to whistle for it, and if the only thing that brought you to your senses was your new employer being made aware of your attitude to your present employer, then it would not be unreasonable for your present employer to take a harder view with you.
I only point this out because I heard of just such a case recently.
what you have stated above seems quite reasonable. Your offfer to pay by installments should be accepted.
However, if, in preceding discussions with your company you offered to pay, say £50 per month on an outstanding Bond in excess of £2000, and if , when the company declined your offer you told them to whistle for it, and if the only thing that brought you to your senses was your new employer being made aware of your attitude to your present employer, then it would not be unreasonable for your present employer to take a harder view with you.
I only point this out because I heard of just such a case recently.
Guest
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There is, of course, another option. Stay with your present employer and COMPLETE the position for which you were hired in the first place. Have noted all too frequently some who want to "run away" from their contractual obligations. That is WHY companies must find it very necessary to bond in the first place. IMHO, save your money and complete your contract.
Guest
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You seem to imply that monketball is trying to shirk his contractual obligations, while from the information presented it would seem the exact opposite is true.
Either he stays and the bond is reduced to zero, or he repays the pro-rated balance in lieu. Which, he has offered to do. Where, exactly, is he "running away"?
I don't quite get your point unless it's just a general "We should all be good and keep our word." Fine, duly noted.
Either he stays and the bond is reduced to zero, or he repays the pro-rated balance in lieu. Which, he has offered to do. Where, exactly, is he "running away"?
I don't quite get your point unless it's just a general "We should all be good and keep our word." Fine, duly noted.
Guest
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As a slight aside to the above, the law strictly forbids an employer from deducting sums from your pay without your permission.
So if they threaten to take your last pay packet towards outstanding amounts, explain to them they would be in breach of employee law (I think it is the Employee Rights Act 1996).
Good Luck
So if they threaten to take your last pay packet towards outstanding amounts, explain to them they would be in breach of employee law (I think it is the Employee Rights Act 1996).
Good Luck
Guest
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A number of quotes from preceding posts:
1. from slj: “the "virtuous comment" as Tilii puts it is the only one that will give you the best chance of a correct answer”;
2. from ADC: “if, in preceding discussions with your company you offered to pay, say £50 per month on an outstanding Bond in excess of £2000, and if, when the company declined your offer you told them to whistle for it, and if the only thing that brought you to your senses was your new employer being made aware of your attitude to your present employer, then it would not be unreasonable for your present employer to take a harder view with you”;
3. from 411A: “Stay with your present employer and COMPLETE the position for which you were hired in the first place. Have noted all too frequently some who want to "run away" from their contractual obligations. That is WHY companies must find it very necessary to bond in the first place. IMHO, save your money and complete your contract”; and
4. from Redline: “the law strictly forbids an employer from deducting sums from your pay without your permission. So if they threaten to take your last pay packet towards outstanding amounts, explain to them they would be in breach of employee law (I think it is the Employee Rights Act 1996)”.
Our friend slj seems to be one who feels that only a lawyer’s opinion has any value. Were this true then there would be no need for courts and judges to decide on whose legal opinion had merit. Wake up and smell the coffee, slj.
Our friend ADC needs to understand that reasonableness is the overriding issue. If a pilot leaves with an outstanding bond of, say, £2000 and can only afford to repay that sum at a rate of £50 per month, then a court will hold it perfectly reasonable for him/her to offer to repay at that rate.
I find friend 411A’s remarks quite astonishingly naïve. Does he suggest that an employer faced with a change in strategy will never seek to divert from any element of the original agreement? The plain and simple facts of life, my friend, are that bonding agreements are an awful imposition upon a pilot but most have clauses that allow for a pilot to leave at any time and repay the alleged outstanding sum. Thus there is no requirement to “COMPLETE” a contract on the basis of time served to completion of the bonding agreement.
Finally, to friend Redline I would say that you misunderstand the law. You are right to a degree, but a bonding agreement usually contains a clause that gives the employee’s unequivocal consent to deduction of outstanding amounts from salary or other entitlements owed. Thus there is no breach of employment law, as you put it.
I hope this all helps, Monkeyball. Just stick to your guns, old chum, and ride out the storm of protest from your present employer. Better things will surely follow. Toodle Pip.
1. from slj: “the "virtuous comment" as Tilii puts it is the only one that will give you the best chance of a correct answer”;
2. from ADC: “if, in preceding discussions with your company you offered to pay, say £50 per month on an outstanding Bond in excess of £2000, and if, when the company declined your offer you told them to whistle for it, and if the only thing that brought you to your senses was your new employer being made aware of your attitude to your present employer, then it would not be unreasonable for your present employer to take a harder view with you”;
3. from 411A: “Stay with your present employer and COMPLETE the position for which you were hired in the first place. Have noted all too frequently some who want to "run away" from their contractual obligations. That is WHY companies must find it very necessary to bond in the first place. IMHO, save your money and complete your contract”; and
4. from Redline: “the law strictly forbids an employer from deducting sums from your pay without your permission. So if they threaten to take your last pay packet towards outstanding amounts, explain to them they would be in breach of employee law (I think it is the Employee Rights Act 1996)”.
Our friend slj seems to be one who feels that only a lawyer’s opinion has any value. Were this true then there would be no need for courts and judges to decide on whose legal opinion had merit. Wake up and smell the coffee, slj.
Our friend ADC needs to understand that reasonableness is the overriding issue. If a pilot leaves with an outstanding bond of, say, £2000 and can only afford to repay that sum at a rate of £50 per month, then a court will hold it perfectly reasonable for him/her to offer to repay at that rate.
I find friend 411A’s remarks quite astonishingly naïve. Does he suggest that an employer faced with a change in strategy will never seek to divert from any element of the original agreement? The plain and simple facts of life, my friend, are that bonding agreements are an awful imposition upon a pilot but most have clauses that allow for a pilot to leave at any time and repay the alleged outstanding sum. Thus there is no requirement to “COMPLETE” a contract on the basis of time served to completion of the bonding agreement.
Finally, to friend Redline I would say that you misunderstand the law. You are right to a degree, but a bonding agreement usually contains a clause that gives the employee’s unequivocal consent to deduction of outstanding amounts from salary or other entitlements owed. Thus there is no breach of employment law, as you put it.
I hope this all helps, Monkeyball. Just stick to your guns, old chum, and ride out the storm of protest from your present employer. Better things will surely follow. Toodle Pip.
Guest
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This might be quite naive of me, but: In Canada, the way a bond works is a company takes out a loan from a bank in your name, and agrees to pay off the loan over a period of years until settled. If you leave before that period is over, they (your employer) just stop paying it for you.
Ergo, no legal wrasssling to deal with; you are just left "holding the bag", and it becomes a matter between you and said bank under the terms of the loan. So continue to pay it off in normal fashion, and you're in the clear in (this case) six months!
For interest's sake, can someone explain to me how the bonding issue is different in Europe/UK? In any case, good luck Monkeyball.
Ergo, no legal wrasssling to deal with; you are just left "holding the bag", and it becomes a matter between you and said bank under the terms of the loan. So continue to pay it off in normal fashion, and you're in the clear in (this case) six months!
For interest's sake, can someone explain to me how the bonding issue is different in Europe/UK? In any case, good luck Monkeyball.