UAL refusing to takeoff at Logan due to ship
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UAL refusing to takeoff at Logan due to ship
UAL 823J has been holding on the runway for 30 minutes and finally shut down his engines because of a "high masted" ship anchored in the harbor at the end of 27. Everybody else is coming and going, but UAL is waiting for clarification from his dispatcher on the procedures.
Haven't heard this before. Tower told him that the ship was well right of his centerline, but he's still sitting there.
Haven't heard this before. Tower told him that the ship was well right of his centerline, but he's still sitting there.
Yea, they're not losing enough money as it is, they need this jerk to sit there and waste more!! Maybe he was building up his courage!
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Why not take another runway? If others were still leaving, either this guy was not on the "active" runway, or others were departing from alternate runways.
If so, in either case, why the fuss?
If so, in either case, why the fuss?
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Maybe he's looking at the note on the 4R ILS where it raises the minimums if there's a tall vessel in the approach area. That would include the departure area (in his mind maybe) of RWY 27. But, then again, maybe that's changed, as my 4R ILS is dated Oct 19, 1990!
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He just reported "problem resolved" and has been cleared to the active. They offered him a couple of options, but he didn't take them. I understand the caution, but why is UAL the only one with procedures like that I wonder?
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There are a lot of places where ships can affect takeoff performance. SIN is one, for a large plane the load penalty can be significant. Usually, the ATIS will have a phrase like "Ships in the channel".
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Yep, and there are special takeoff numbers for this very situation but I'm not that familiar with BOS.
The ACARS Takeoff Performance Report would be coded R27/SHIP or something to that effect. If he didn't have it, then good on them for not taking off. Why is the pilot a "jerk" for clarifying the situation? I'd have done the same thing. Guess I'm a jerk.
The ACARS Takeoff Performance Report would be coded R27/SHIP or something to that effect. If he didn't have it, then good on them for not taking off. Why is the pilot a "jerk" for clarifying the situation? I'd have done the same thing. Guess I'm a jerk.
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Maybe everyone else got it wrong...? I'd say UA has learnt a lot of this stuff through... "the school of hard knocks".... be carefull about criticizing without knowing the full story. On the surface sounds like s/he did the prudent thing.
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The old HKG airport was another where some ships made a difference (runway 13) with obstacle clearance, on departure.
Best to know YOUR procedures, and apply accordingly.
One size does not necessarily fit all.
Best to know YOUR procedures, and apply accordingly.
One size does not necessarily fit all.
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Take off performance is predicated on no ships in the channel. If there is a ship, it is like a big TV antenna or mountain is temporarily parked off the end of the runway.
That obstruction invalidates your t/o perf data. If do not have takeoff data that covers existing conditions, you cannot go.
What amazes me the most is the comment "Sludge" made about the captain being a Jerk and impying that for economic reasons they should take off anyway.
It would be unsafe and illegal to take off with the ship in the channel while the Performance data is based on no ship.
This is SOP at KBOS. As a Captain, you wait and coordinate with all of the involved parties to get the performance data you need.
(BTW, I learned many years ago not to try and fly another man's airplane. It is impossible if you are in an airplane nearby, much less at a keyboard thousands of miles away, getting third-hand information from a web-board)
R
That obstruction invalidates your t/o perf data. If do not have takeoff data that covers existing conditions, you cannot go.
What amazes me the most is the comment "Sludge" made about the captain being a Jerk and impying that for economic reasons they should take off anyway.
It would be unsafe and illegal to take off with the ship in the channel while the Performance data is based on no ship.
This is SOP at KBOS. As a Captain, you wait and coordinate with all of the involved parties to get the performance data you need.
(BTW, I learned many years ago not to try and fly another man's airplane. It is impossible if you are in an airplane nearby, much less at a keyboard thousands of miles away, getting third-hand information from a web-board)
R
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The old HKG airport was another where some ships made a difference (runway 13) with obstacle clearance, on departure.
On a cool day in a small 'Bus the UAL pilot was probably more worried about legality than safety in this case. Sometimes you know you can do something, like a takeoff from an intersection behind one for which you have data but you don't do it if you lack the documentation. As time goes on, I find I make fewer judgment calls and follow the path laid by the paperwork even if it does not seem optimal. Flying at large outfits like UAL is very much a CYA exercise these days IMHO.
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Remember being on a 31 000t tanker leaving Kwun Tong in ballast in mid 80's and BA 747 came just about over the top of us from Kai Tak. Very impressive but never gave a thought to us being a Notam!
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Retire 2015,
Most airline performance figures for runways in the vicinity of shipping make some allowance for shipping, both for the approach and for takeoff. For example, one airline I know use a figure of over 200' for shipping in the channel at Boston. Where the height of the shipping exceeds that figure, some other form of correction may have to be applied.
It is possible that where the airline use centralised performance determination i.e. a flight despatcher, to determine takeoff data, the pilot has no way of knowing what consideration is being given to shipping off the end of the runway.
Most airline performance figures for runways in the vicinity of shipping make some allowance for shipping, both for the approach and for takeoff. For example, one airline I know use a figure of over 200' for shipping in the channel at Boston. Where the height of the shipping exceeds that figure, some other form of correction may have to be applied.
It is possible that where the airline use centralised performance determination i.e. a flight despatcher, to determine takeoff data, the pilot has no way of knowing what consideration is being given to shipping off the end of the runway.
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OK, I said in my Post #4 above that my Approach Plate (Jeppesen, dated Oct. 19, 1990) shows a higher minimum for the ILS 4R if there's a ship in the approach area. Can someone who has a current plate tell me if that restriction is still there?
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Not legal...
Unless he has takeoff charts for such a situation, it's illegal for him to take off.
I'm assuming this was the case....and he was requesting take off data from their engineering department for this situation. Sometimes it takes awhile to get this.
At my old company, we had separate charts for this type of situation....
specifically in BOS, we had charts for 22R, 27, etc. for when ships were
in the channel.
Management is to blame (big surprise!) for not having such charts already onboard....thereby eliminating the delay.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
I'm assuming this was the case....and he was requesting take off data from their engineering department for this situation. Sometimes it takes awhile to get this.
At my old company, we had separate charts for this type of situation....
specifically in BOS, we had charts for 22R, 27, etc. for when ships were
in the channel.
Management is to blame (big surprise!) for not having such charts already onboard....thereby eliminating the delay.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
Being the Captain is less about flying the metal than being able to justify ones' actions at The Subsequent Court of Inquiry into an accident or incident that might well have caused loss of life, or injury.
If you can confidently justify breaking a rule, and there are times when that might well be the best course of action, then go ahead,otherwise ........
If you can confidently justify breaking a rule, and there are times when that might well be the best course of action, then go ahead,otherwise ........