Redundances on British Midland Regional 146 fleet?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's this thing called a scope agreement so even if bmi could make a fortune by operating a 146 on a route (highly unlikely) they can't. You can thank BALPA for that one. If someone thinks they can set up and manage an airline then I wish them the best of luck. If you've got enough money to finance it yourself you don't need to work anyway. If you can convince someone else to then you've got one hell of a business plan and nothing to lose, so go for it!
Guest
Posts: n/a
The Bash - spot on, mate: agreeing to those scope deals were absolute insanity on the part of the airlines; and it's times like this that prove it. Look at some of the US carriers which wanted to replace unprofitable mainline aircraft with economically viable - but smaller - aircraft; the unions went ballistic over it. Those people would seemingly rather the company went out of business than be flexible over things like this! 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Stevenage, Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bash, the scope clause was done behind our backs. I don't know if anyone on the 146 realise it was there until recently.
That apart, while the crews can all see how full the stn flights are, and wonder why we can't do them ourselves, I heard our management thought it would not be the right thing to operate those routes as it would mean competing with our Star Alliance partner. Yet LH have been giving work to Flightline the last few weeks. Some partner!!
That apart, while the crews can all see how full the stn flights are, and wonder why we can't do them ourselves, I heard our management thought it would not be the right thing to operate those routes as it would mean competing with our Star Alliance partner. Yet LH have been giving work to Flightline the last few weeks. Some partner!!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bash
If we had been in the union then we would have had a say in the scope clause and not just been told it was now in place. The Crew Council is a complete and utter joke even more so now than before!
Donnington have squashed every good idea put to them, with even PY & WH are saying that any ideas might not fit the Groups future plans.
You maybe alright but some of us may never work in this industry again. We've been treated very badly.
Any idea that keeps me and my colleagues in a job must be listened to and checked.
Good luck to anyone who tries to get something positive out of this!
If we had been in the union then we would have had a say in the scope clause and not just been told it was now in place. The Crew Council is a complete and utter joke even more so now than before!
Donnington have squashed every good idea put to them, with even PY & WH are saying that any ideas might not fit the Groups future plans.
You maybe alright but some of us may never work in this industry again. We've been treated very badly.
Any idea that keeps me and my colleagues in a job must be listened to and checked.
Good luck to anyone who tries to get something positive out of this!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If only it was so simple and straight forward as some people think. We are all pawns in a great game that nobody understands completely. I don't know who the various contributors are here but there are many individuals who poured scorn on the offer of an ERJ rating just six months ago. That doesn't mean they are wrong to want the job now but it illustrates how we all, including me, interpret events according to our own personal circumstances and ambitions. Events beyong our control change the perspective totally. What seemed to some people an attempt to trick 146 pilots into accepting transfers onto the 145 a few months ago would look like a pretty good offer now. Does anyone really believe BALPA would have considered for one minute the views of bmir pilots when demanding a scope agreement? That agreement was made to prevent bmir pilots taking bmi jobs. Fair enough. Whether you believe it has saved jobs or cost them depends on where you are now. I personally think it makes no difference to jobs but restricts the company's ability to react to change. That may cost jobs in the future at both companies. I can't see how it can help to create a single pilot job ever.
The best hope for any pilot wanting to work for bmir is that the ERJ program starts again sometime in the future. If someone else is recruiting for 737, Airbus or even 146 a lot of those soon to be laid off wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, even if it offered the security that everyone would give their right arm for now. We suffer from very short term memory and we believe what we want to believe, even when the truth is staring us in the face. I am truly sorry the 146 is finished and I'm even more sorry about those folk who are losing their jobs. Hitting out at those who make the decisions and who are still in work is natural and if it helps to get people through the hurt then it's maybe a good thing.
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
The best hope for any pilot wanting to work for bmir is that the ERJ program starts again sometime in the future. If someone else is recruiting for 737, Airbus or even 146 a lot of those soon to be laid off wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, even if it offered the security that everyone would give their right arm for now. We suffer from very short term memory and we believe what we want to believe, even when the truth is staring us in the face. I am truly sorry the 146 is finished and I'm even more sorry about those folk who are losing their jobs. Hitting out at those who make the decisions and who are still in work is natural and if it helps to get people through the hurt then it's maybe a good thing.
[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The trouble with the offer to transfer to the ERJ wasn't the aircraft or the 145 guys. It was purely that we were not given enough facts such as basing, roster patterns, etc. I said this at the time.
The trouble now is that we are still not being told all the facts, at a time when there is so much uncertainty, management are being as secretive as ever. It might be that they don't know anything but their past idea has been to treat us like mushrooms. Now they must come clean. That's Donnington & Aberdeen.
The trouble now is that we are still not being told all the facts, at a time when there is so much uncertainty, management are being as secretive as ever. It might be that they don't know anything but their past idea has been to treat us like mushrooms. Now they must come clean. That's Donnington & Aberdeen.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alterego
Basing is in the hands of the crew council and no-one knows where future bases for any aircraft will be. Look at the Stansted experience on the 146 for example. Roster patterns are also a moveable feast but if you wanted to know what they were like at the time you could have asked the rostering department. The majority, not all, of 146 pilots saw bmir as a way onto the Airbus with bmi. That was all they were interested in and some individuals argued long and hard, on this very site, that they should be given preferential treatment. That door has been closed for now and what's worse is the fleet has had the rug pulled from under it. I cannot see any hidden agenda. Just a lot of bad luck and some short sightedness. You see plots and schemes everywhere but the facts are there for all to see. What is it that management must come clean about? You should be specific. What you are doing by making vague accusations is creating doubt in the minds of people who have enough to worry about already.
Basing is in the hands of the crew council and no-one knows where future bases for any aircraft will be. Look at the Stansted experience on the 146 for example. Roster patterns are also a moveable feast but if you wanted to know what they were like at the time you could have asked the rostering department. The majority, not all, of 146 pilots saw bmir as a way onto the Airbus with bmi. That was all they were interested in and some individuals argued long and hard, on this very site, that they should be given preferential treatment. That door has been closed for now and what's worse is the fleet has had the rug pulled from under it. I cannot see any hidden agenda. Just a lot of bad luck and some short sightedness. You see plots and schemes everywhere but the facts are there for all to see. What is it that management must come clean about? You should be specific. What you are doing by making vague accusations is creating doubt in the minds of people who have enough to worry about already.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bash
You miss my point. When WH asked if we would want to transfer to the 145, we weren't told if we would be bonded, have a drop in wages, be moved, take home less duty pay. In other words we couldn't make a descision based on the information at the time.
Now of course is a different story but there is still not enough information. Messers Crosland and Mcarthy do not appear to care about the 146 as they are very conspicuous in their silence.
We will never know if BALPA would have helped our cause with the scope clause but they could not have done any worse!
There is no pint in calling people like WH names.
You miss my point. When WH asked if we would want to transfer to the 145, we weren't told if we would be bonded, have a drop in wages, be moved, take home less duty pay. In other words we couldn't make a descision based on the information at the time.
Now of course is a different story but there is still not enough information. Messers Crosland and Mcarthy do not appear to care about the 146 as they are very conspicuous in their silence.
We will never know if BALPA would have helped our cause with the scope clause but they could not have done any worse!
There is no pint in calling people like WH names.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tosh? Here's some facts.
The CLH (not LH!) contract would have begun to run down in March but would not have ended until August next. Until last September a further extension seemed likely.
It was stated by management that when the contract ended they predicted employment for all those who wanted it would be available on the 145. At the time the transfer to bmi was running (seven last spring, seven to go this autumn and more this spring), and other airlines were recruiting hard. The biggest concern was where to find enough crews, (captains in particular), for the new aircraft. It was a totally realistic proposition that all who wanted it would get a place on the 145 as and when the 146 ran down.
One assumes they would have been treated like the Saab transfers. It is obvious they would have been bonded and have to join the base bid system. They would also have been bound by the 12 months since latest type rating rule for bmi transfer. The pay deal would have virtually closed the gap between the two fleets by then. No big mystery there.
That they were a special case was a peculiar notion held by a few 146 pilots and probably the one that made them most unpopular.
While the majority got on with the job a minority shouted the odds about how they should be given preferential transfers to bmi. It was a commonly stated view that the "Barbie Jet" was a backward career move.
No-one was conned or lied to but some weren't in touch with reality and could only hear the sound of their own braying.
As for the crew council. One of those being criticised now did all the research for that 145 pay deal. He was involved in the negotiations and was also present at a meeting convened because some people felt the former chairman had sold the 145 pilots out. He was the one who kept his cool.
Finally, if you want to name someone else on this site use your own name to do it. That way if you libel them you will have to face the consequences.
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
The CLH (not LH!) contract would have begun to run down in March but would not have ended until August next. Until last September a further extension seemed likely.
It was stated by management that when the contract ended they predicted employment for all those who wanted it would be available on the 145. At the time the transfer to bmi was running (seven last spring, seven to go this autumn and more this spring), and other airlines were recruiting hard. The biggest concern was where to find enough crews, (captains in particular), for the new aircraft. It was a totally realistic proposition that all who wanted it would get a place on the 145 as and when the 146 ran down.
One assumes they would have been treated like the Saab transfers. It is obvious they would have been bonded and have to join the base bid system. They would also have been bound by the 12 months since latest type rating rule for bmi transfer. The pay deal would have virtually closed the gap between the two fleets by then. No big mystery there.
That they were a special case was a peculiar notion held by a few 146 pilots and probably the one that made them most unpopular.
While the majority got on with the job a minority shouted the odds about how they should be given preferential transfers to bmi. It was a commonly stated view that the "Barbie Jet" was a backward career move.
No-one was conned or lied to but some weren't in touch with reality and could only hear the sound of their own braying.
As for the crew council. One of those being criticised now did all the research for that 145 pay deal. He was involved in the negotiations and was also present at a meeting convened because some people felt the former chairman had sold the 145 pilots out. He was the one who kept his cool.
Finally, if you want to name someone else on this site use your own name to do it. That way if you libel them you will have to face the consequences.
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BASH
FACT- The formal offer of employment states that it is a Lufthansa Contract not Cityline.
FACT- The formal offer of employment states that the contract runs for 30 months. It doesn't state that this could be cut short or that part of the contract runs out in March.
FACT- The formal offer of employment states that we are free to apply to transfer at any time. Not restricted as is actually the case.
Now perhaps if you had read that letter you may, know the facts a bit better than you think you do. I am quoting from actual documentation!
FACT- The formal offer of employment states that it is a Lufthansa Contract not Cityline.
FACT- The formal offer of employment states that the contract runs for 30 months. It doesn't state that this could be cut short or that part of the contract runs out in March.
FACT- The formal offer of employment states that we are free to apply to transfer at any time. Not restricted as is actually the case.
Now perhaps if you had read that letter you may, know the facts a bit better than you think you do. I am quoting from actual documentation!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am more than happy to answer any questions concerning the accuracy of what I've said. I'm afraid that scatter gun aspertions are impossible to reply to.
So to answer your specific criticisms of my text.
1. It may be that the contract is with LH rather than CLH. If so I stand corrected but I don't think this is really relevant. Pointless me mentioning it in the first place so I apologise.
2. 30 months is correct. That takes it to next August. I think that makes November 30th a bit more than a "little earlier than first thought".
3. 146 pilots could apply for transfer to bmi anytime. Many did. They just couldn't go until they met the transfer criteria. Just like everyone else.
If I've said anything else that is incorrect please be specific. Sweeping generalisations sound good but contribute very little. I appear to be in a discussion with two people here. In an earlier post I asked what it was they felt was being held back from them. The question still hangs. We all know you're upset but what exactly is it that you want? If all you need is to vent your anger and frustration then that's fine but don't do it by having a pop at named individuals. Just because someone doesn't see things your way doesn't make them a legitimate target for a slagging off. If there is something specific that you feel should have been done for you then let's hear what it is. That might turn this into a constructive exchange.
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
So to answer your specific criticisms of my text.
1. It may be that the contract is with LH rather than CLH. If so I stand corrected but I don't think this is really relevant. Pointless me mentioning it in the first place so I apologise.
2. 30 months is correct. That takes it to next August. I think that makes November 30th a bit more than a "little earlier than first thought".
3. 146 pilots could apply for transfer to bmi anytime. Many did. They just couldn't go until they met the transfer criteria. Just like everyone else.
If I've said anything else that is incorrect please be specific. Sweeping generalisations sound good but contribute very little. I appear to be in a discussion with two people here. In an earlier post I asked what it was they felt was being held back from them. The question still hangs. We all know you're upset but what exactly is it that you want? If all you need is to vent your anger and frustration then that's fine but don't do it by having a pop at named individuals. Just because someone doesn't see things your way doesn't make them a legitimate target for a slagging off. If there is something specific that you feel should have been done for you then let's hear what it is. That might turn this into a constructive exchange.
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can you confirm that the seniority list is not a company list, it is a Crew Council list, as we have been told at our redundancy meeting? If so the council have blocked my transfer, not the company
I think that the time has come to stop playing and try and find something positive out of this.
Has anybody got any ideas how to save the jobs that are going?
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: alterego ]
I think that the time has come to stop playing and try and find something positive out of this.
Has anybody got any ideas how to save the jobs that are going?
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: alterego ]
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Somewhere between here and there....
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Either way guys, there's a lot of unhappy teds who are going to be out of work very soon. Rather than slag them in saying "he said this she said that" why not try and help your workmates (and I use that term lightly) find alternative employment, like I am. There was always too much bitching and moaning when the 146 fleet arrived. Lets face FACT. The 146 crews were NEVER well received by many alledged top bods within the four walls at ABZ.
Now then, give us all a break and help these guys and girls.
Now then, give us all a break and help these guys and girls.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the above it's clear the one thing we all would like is for no-one to get made redundant. If anyone has a business plan that can make that happen he had should send it to ABZ pronto. Unfortunately that requires a bit more than the understandable desire to preserve one's job. Ringing up and suggesting that Plymouth to Timbuctou would be a brilliant route doesn't constitute a business plan. The fact that bmir operates routes on behalf of bmi means you can suggest as many "licenses to print money" as you like but unless the commercial folk at bmi decide a route is viable it won't happen. The same applies to fleets, if bmi don't want it bmir won't operate it. This brings me back to my original load of "utter tosh". If you want to work for bmir in the future your best hope is on the ERJ 145/135. The best chance of that happening is if difficult decisions are made now on the grounds of objectivity and pragmatism. Once taken they should be implemented in the most generous and compassionate way possible. Trying to stall the inevitable will achieve nothing other than to further endanger the future well being of the company.
The 146 fleet was set up for CLH. They don't want it any more. It's all over bar the shouting. If I'm wrong about that I'll be delighted. So delighted that I'll buy every 146 driver in bmir a beer if something unexpected turns this situation round.
My understanding is that the seniority list is controlled and administered by the crew council.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
The 146 fleet was set up for CLH. They don't want it any more. It's all over bar the shouting. If I'm wrong about that I'll be delighted. So delighted that I'll buy every 146 driver in bmir a beer if something unexpected turns this situation round.
My understanding is that the seniority list is controlled and administered by the crew council.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]