Concern over jet-lagged pilots
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I have family who are Docs , not taking away how hard they work. But remember some work excruciating hours during thier internships and the first few years. Then many go into private practice ( if they so choose) .Where they choose thier hours ( largely) . It is not sustained ( internship) type hours over a 30 year career. Now flying on the other hand ........
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Melatonin & Jet - lag
I have a daughter who suffer's from autism & a sleep disorder .
She is prescribed Melatonin and takes it on a regular basis and has i am glad to say shown great improvement in sleeping patterns !
Now on a trip to see her consultant we got into a conversation about the benfits of taking this medication and my daughters consultant actually told me that he personally knew that Melatonin works for jet -lag .
When i asked him how he knew - he told me he used it all the time as he flew on a very regular basis and a lot of long haul . He also told me that he had two friends who worked in the avaition industry - both Air crew who used it also to combat fatigue and jet-lag .
So what did i do ?
Prior to a recent vacation to Cuba - flight from Manchester , UK to Varadero i took melatonin for 1 week - after a gruelling 14 hour journey ( delays etc & drop off at Holguin ) we arrived at our hotel late in the evening .
Myself and my partner woke up fresh as daisys , with not a hint ov jet-lag , in fact we where the only travellers from our flight to be at breakfast & lunch .
we where on the beach whilst everone else was in bed suffering from jet -lag !
Frankly we where amazed . Mind over matter ?
Well we did'nt take any melatonin whilst on vacation and forgot to take it prior to departure like we where supposed to do .
consequence - on return to the uk both off us felt dredfull ..the dreded jet lag had caught up with us ! since then i use melatonin on a reugular basis especially when travelling long haul ..i have learnt that some airline pilots also use this substance ?
what do you guys think ? and have you ever used it yourself ?
She is prescribed Melatonin and takes it on a regular basis and has i am glad to say shown great improvement in sleeping patterns !
Now on a trip to see her consultant we got into a conversation about the benfits of taking this medication and my daughters consultant actually told me that he personally knew that Melatonin works for jet -lag .
When i asked him how he knew - he told me he used it all the time as he flew on a very regular basis and a lot of long haul . He also told me that he had two friends who worked in the avaition industry - both Air crew who used it also to combat fatigue and jet-lag .
So what did i do ?
Prior to a recent vacation to Cuba - flight from Manchester , UK to Varadero i took melatonin for 1 week - after a gruelling 14 hour journey ( delays etc & drop off at Holguin ) we arrived at our hotel late in the evening .
Myself and my partner woke up fresh as daisys , with not a hint ov jet-lag , in fact we where the only travellers from our flight to be at breakfast & lunch .
we where on the beach whilst everone else was in bed suffering from jet -lag !
Frankly we where amazed . Mind over matter ?
Well we did'nt take any melatonin whilst on vacation and forgot to take it prior to departure like we where supposed to do .
consequence - on return to the uk both off us felt dredfull ..the dreded jet lag had caught up with us ! since then i use melatonin on a reugular basis especially when travelling long haul ..i have learnt that some airline pilots also use this substance ?
what do you guys think ? and have you ever used it yourself ?
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My companies medical policy explicitly forbids the use of melatonin. On top of this it may show up in random drug testing by them. So no relief there.
But glad you had a nice holiday.
But glad you had a nice holiday.
Nodding off in the cruise
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I think this report was commissioned by EASA to act as a basis for an alignment of the European FTL regs - at the moment each country works to a different FTL scheme. So I guess they were trying to use the latest science to produce a new, European-wide FTL scheme. That kind of makes sense.
However....according to the Daily Telegraph (link in 1st post) -
Erm....we already get 10 hours rest don't we? I mean, minimum for us is 10 hours in a hotel, or 12 hours rest, or rest equal to the length of the time on duty.
Increasing meal breaks??? Who gets meal breaks? Not me, that's for sure!!! Nor anyone in the airline I work for....
When do we get this 20 minutes meal break then? On the turnround (between doing the walk round, computer, perf figures, liaising with company on flight plans, refuelling, etc.etc.)???? Does someone actually get a meal break??
However....according to the Daily Telegraph (link in 1st post) -
"The report called for a number of changes including at least 10 hours' rest for crew arriving at night."
Other recommendations included increasing meal break times from 20 to 30 minutes every six hours for crew, with an additional 10 minute break every three hours to avoid dehydration.
When do we get this 20 minutes meal break then? On the turnround (between doing the walk round, computer, perf figures, liaising with company on flight plans, refuelling, etc.etc.)???? Does someone actually get a meal break??
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John R,
I'm not sure about other pilots but for myself and 99% of the Captains I fly with, the longest sector CRZ normally tends to contain the lunch break.
When I first began flying on the line, I made a typical mistake - I didn't eat all day when I was at work, and when I got home I simply felt too tired even to eat. I was on duty for the morning flight to Reus the next day, and that morning I ate nothing either, or for the entire day as a matter of fact. The third day was an absolute nightmare - I slept poorly and woke up feeling drained of every ounce of energy in my body. As fate would dictate I was operating a six sector day (first one for a while) and I felt dreadful. I had a skull numbing headache all day long, my throat was sore, my eyes dry (the low humidity only exacerbated matters), and it took every little piece of professionalism and self control I possess to stop myself from nodding off. My Captain that day was not the 'understanding' type and I am certain, had I fallen asleep, a certain letter would have made its way to HR.
And perhaps rightly so - as airline pilots we are bounded by a personal duty to do all in our power to fit our own sleeping and eating patterns around our rosters.
I must come clean - I have never had a flying job in which I have had to work opposing shifts so I couldn't possibly comment on that matter, however I have worked similar hours in jobs prior to flying, and I take my hats off to those of you who successfully plan your time and get away without incident.
But as somebody above has mentioned, Ryanair is a good place to work regarding the hours - there was that one time, but that was my own doing. Generally if you take the time and think to yourself, "Right, what's on for the next 72 hours", it's not too difficult to plan your life accordingly.
In saying that, stby's can really fu*k things up... I had an 'informal' standby at the request of ops, and I was told there was a minimal chance I may be required on Day X - you know, the odds of which were similar to a meteor strike. So I had a late night, climbed into bed and the phone woke me up three hours later... Oh well, I had a few days off after that!
The best we can do, chaps, is try to plan as best we can - eat healthy and reguarly, remain hydrated, and you can't go far wrong
Ad
I'm not sure about other pilots but for myself and 99% of the Captains I fly with, the longest sector CRZ normally tends to contain the lunch break.
When I first began flying on the line, I made a typical mistake - I didn't eat all day when I was at work, and when I got home I simply felt too tired even to eat. I was on duty for the morning flight to Reus the next day, and that morning I ate nothing either, or for the entire day as a matter of fact. The third day was an absolute nightmare - I slept poorly and woke up feeling drained of every ounce of energy in my body. As fate would dictate I was operating a six sector day (first one for a while) and I felt dreadful. I had a skull numbing headache all day long, my throat was sore, my eyes dry (the low humidity only exacerbated matters), and it took every little piece of professionalism and self control I possess to stop myself from nodding off. My Captain that day was not the 'understanding' type and I am certain, had I fallen asleep, a certain letter would have made its way to HR.
And perhaps rightly so - as airline pilots we are bounded by a personal duty to do all in our power to fit our own sleeping and eating patterns around our rosters.
I must come clean - I have never had a flying job in which I have had to work opposing shifts so I couldn't possibly comment on that matter, however I have worked similar hours in jobs prior to flying, and I take my hats off to those of you who successfully plan your time and get away without incident.
But as somebody above has mentioned, Ryanair is a good place to work regarding the hours - there was that one time, but that was my own doing. Generally if you take the time and think to yourself, "Right, what's on for the next 72 hours", it's not too difficult to plan your life accordingly.
In saying that, stby's can really fu*k things up... I had an 'informal' standby at the request of ops, and I was told there was a minimal chance I may be required on Day X - you know, the odds of which were similar to a meteor strike. So I had a late night, climbed into bed and the phone woke me up three hours later... Oh well, I had a few days off after that!
The best we can do, chaps, is try to plan as best we can - eat healthy and reguarly, remain hydrated, and you can't go far wrong
Ad
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As an aside, can anyone point me in the direction of any actual studies done on shift patterns. I often hear that such an such is the most fatiguing roster, however can find no proof. Thanks.
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Morning to all, fatigue.........
We must firstly diffentiate the difference between being tired and being fatigued. I know I am fatigued when I need my calculator to do a simple calculation such as 2+2. (I then hope I push the right buttons!)
We do extremely long days in sometimes very challlenging conditions and even more challenging 'airports' around the Middle East and Africa. We can have a planned duty day of 18.5 hours (no max sectors) Unfortunately, we sometimes have to do more. I have found that fatigue starts to affect the brain waves after a few days of flying. An 18 or 20 hour day is easily accepted by the body and brain, but 5, 6, or 7 days like this in a row is when danger becomes ever present. Fortunately, when we (our company) are toooo fatigued, we stop where we are and rest. The company has never 'punished' us for stopping. They may have asked for us to continue, but the crew have the final word.
We all know the FTL's do not reflect an in depth medical analysis of the human body, Oh sorry, maybe the 'left pocket' part of the anatomy! It is a vegetarian analysis (bean counter!) that has no meat or substance. Pilots and unions are the only way to change things but we must be carefull not to cut our own throats! I personnally think we should have a system where the duty limits are inversley proportional to the days worked. Fresh from days off maybe 16 or 17 hours, at the end of your month maybe only 8 hours a day..........
Well my 2 pence worth and 2 precious minutes.....now I can rest for my next planned trip. 55 hours, 10 sectors, 4 days and 8 countries! And to think I dreamed and worked to achieve this career for years....even decades!
Have a great new year guys
We must firstly diffentiate the difference between being tired and being fatigued. I know I am fatigued when I need my calculator to do a simple calculation such as 2+2. (I then hope I push the right buttons!)
We do extremely long days in sometimes very challlenging conditions and even more challenging 'airports' around the Middle East and Africa. We can have a planned duty day of 18.5 hours (no max sectors) Unfortunately, we sometimes have to do more. I have found that fatigue starts to affect the brain waves after a few days of flying. An 18 or 20 hour day is easily accepted by the body and brain, but 5, 6, or 7 days like this in a row is when danger becomes ever present. Fortunately, when we (our company) are toooo fatigued, we stop where we are and rest. The company has never 'punished' us for stopping. They may have asked for us to continue, but the crew have the final word.
We all know the FTL's do not reflect an in depth medical analysis of the human body, Oh sorry, maybe the 'left pocket' part of the anatomy! It is a vegetarian analysis (bean counter!) that has no meat or substance. Pilots and unions are the only way to change things but we must be carefull not to cut our own throats! I personnally think we should have a system where the duty limits are inversley proportional to the days worked. Fresh from days off maybe 16 or 17 hours, at the end of your month maybe only 8 hours a day..........
Well my 2 pence worth and 2 precious minutes.....now I can rest for my next planned trip. 55 hours, 10 sectors, 4 days and 8 countries! And to think I dreamed and worked to achieve this career for years....even decades!
Have a great new year guys
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Melatonin & Jet Lag
Prior to a recent vacation to Cuba - flight from Manchester , UK to Varadero i took melatonin for 1 week - after a gruelling 14 hour journey ( delays etc & drop off at Holguin ) we arrived at our hotel late in the evening .
Myself and my partner woke up fresh as daisys , with not a hint ov jet-lag , in fact we where the only travellers from our flight to be at breakfast & lunch .
Myself and my partner woke up fresh as daisys , with not a hint ov jet-lag , in fact we where the only travellers from our flight to be at breakfast & lunch .
Well we did'nt take any melatonin whilst on vacation and forgot to take it prior to departure like we where supposed to do .
consequence - on return to the uk both off us felt dredfull ..the dreded jet lag had caught up with us ! since then i use melatonin on a reugular basis especially when travelling long haul ..i have learnt that some airline pilots also use this substance ?
consequence - on return to the uk both off us felt dredfull ..the dreded jet lag had caught up with us ! since then i use melatonin on a reugular basis especially when travelling long haul ..i have learnt that some airline pilots also use this substance ?
2. Inbound you were flying West to East and you experienced jet lag.
3. Malatonin should not be used by flight crews without prior consultation with your AME (http://www.flightsafety.org/hf/hf_may-june96.pdf) .
4. CAA CAP 768 3.1:
"... Because melatonin will cause sleepiness and impair performance immediately after ingestion, and because the after-effects could be detrimental to operational efficiency, operators should forbid its use less than 12 hours before the start of a flying duty period and during the duty period."
The CAA have *not* banned melatonin but *do not recommend it*:
Again, CAA CAP768 3.1
"An informal CAA survey revealed that some users experienced nightmares, morning grogginess, mild depression, nausea and genital pain. In the light of what is now known about melatonin, its use by flight and cabin crew is not recommended."
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Ladies & Gentlemen,
This topic has been thrashed around for years. Every so often something causes it to be resurected. It is again debated here and else where. Often, as now, it is a new report telling what we have known for years. And yet what has been done about? the square root of f'all. It is a waste of money just becasue of that. We don't need a new report to re-hash the old ones. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE OLD ONES FIRST! Then, as with all good systems and much of our problem solving teachings, there is feed back and a review. Then there is a valuation of events and a rethink for a fine tune if necessary. As far as I can see, for most of the EU, nothing has been achieved by these reports. The new JAA FTL's don't seem to have taken on board data and opinions from the past 20 years. Except for some countries e.g. Italy whose FTL's were just plain dangerous and a health hazard to everyone, most of us seem to have gone backwards. Until stand is taken somewhere in the chain nowt will happen. There is too much financial muscle from the top. Pax will not accept prices of old. The industry would shrink to fit, perhaps, but it would be smaller. Some would say not a bad thing.
This topic has been thrashed around for years. Every so often something causes it to be resurected. It is again debated here and else where. Often, as now, it is a new report telling what we have known for years. And yet what has been done about? the square root of f'all. It is a waste of money just becasue of that. We don't need a new report to re-hash the old ones. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE OLD ONES FIRST! Then, as with all good systems and much of our problem solving teachings, there is feed back and a review. Then there is a valuation of events and a rethink for a fine tune if necessary. As far as I can see, for most of the EU, nothing has been achieved by these reports. The new JAA FTL's don't seem to have taken on board data and opinions from the past 20 years. Except for some countries e.g. Italy whose FTL's were just plain dangerous and a health hazard to everyone, most of us seem to have gone backwards. Until stand is taken somewhere in the chain nowt will happen. There is too much financial muscle from the top. Pax will not accept prices of old. The industry would shrink to fit, perhaps, but it would be smaller. Some would say not a bad thing.
