Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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There was a quote from an air traffic union rep on one of news channels earlier saying that the pilots had seen an airfield below them and were at that time considering making an approach into that airport. If I heard correctly the airport in question was Teterboro Airport.
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I'll bet they do more damage getting it out of the water than these absolute heroes did putting it in there in the first place.
Awesome achievement.
Might even focus a few minds on safety briefings for a day or two at least.
Be lucky
David
Awesome achievement.
Might even focus a few minds on safety briefings for a day or two at least.
Be lucky
David
Unconfirmed report the pilot was this chap - quite a CV?
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If this is BS - mod - please delete this post, with my apologies for disseminating internet tosh.
Safety Reliability Methods, Inc. - About Us
If this is BS - mod - please delete this post, with my apologies for disseminating internet tosh.
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Anyone else notice on the news footage the crew of a ferry (seemingly) throwing their life jackets to men on the wing (long after everyone was off) presumably to be put into the fuselage to keep the A/C afloat?
A lot of smart thinking and efficient training at work out there.
A lot of smart thinking and efficient training at work out there.
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According to CN yes, Sully Sullenburger. Great pilot!
SRM Founder Chesley B. "Sully" Sullenberger, III is a captain for a major U.S. airline with over 40 years of flying experience. A former U.S. Air Force (USAF) fighter pilot, he has served as an instructor and Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) safety chairman, accident investigator and national technical committee member. He has participated in several USAF and National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) accident investigations. His ALPA safety work led to the development of a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Advisory Circular. Working with National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) scientists, he coauthored a paper on error inducing contexts in aviation. He was instrumental in the development and implementation of the Crew Resource Management (CRM) course used at his airline and has taught the course to hundreds of his colleagues. Sully is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy (B.S.), Purdue University (M.S.) and the University of Northern Colorado (M.A.). He was a speaker on two panels at the High Reliability Organizations (HRO) 2007 International Conference in Deauville, France May 29-31, 2007. He has just been named a Visiting Scholar at the University of California, Berkeley.
SRM Founder Chesley B. "Sully" Sullenberger, III is a captain for a major U.S. airline with over 40 years of flying experience. A former U.S. Air Force (USAF) fighter pilot, he has served as an instructor and Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) safety chairman, accident investigator and national technical committee member. He has participated in several USAF and National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) accident investigations. His ALPA safety work led to the development of a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Advisory Circular. Working with National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) scientists, he coauthored a paper on error inducing contexts in aviation. He was instrumental in the development and implementation of the Crew Resource Management (CRM) course used at his airline and has taught the course to hundreds of his colleagues. Sully is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy (B.S.), Purdue University (M.S.) and the University of Northern Colorado (M.A.). He was a speaker on two panels at the High Reliability Organizations (HRO) 2007 International Conference in Deauville, France May 29-31, 2007. He has just been named a Visiting Scholar at the University of California, Berkeley.
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LaGuardia Airport - AirportMonitor - by Megadata - powered by PASSUR
start time of 15:26, click on 'departures'. Incident a/c would be the green aircraft just north of LGA heading 360 on departure.
They crossed I-95 and over Brooklyn Park started a descending turn to the left. They would not have been over and airports(Teterboro or Westchester), and probably wouldn't not have been high enough to reach either airport. So their choices would have been highways(with many overpasses) trees/built up areas, or water.
Helicopter flying up the Hudson at 1000', just south of the G.W. Bridge, turned to the east to avoid the A320(1300-1400' AGL) gliding towards them, and then turned west apparently to assist.
Anyone get any links to liveatc for the event yet? The helo's radio calls might be interesting.
Also, check out www.maps.google.com or google earth, and you can see how crowded the area is. I-95 is the major highway running east of the G.W. bridge.
start time of 15:26, click on 'departures'. Incident a/c would be the green aircraft just north of LGA heading 360 on departure.
They crossed I-95 and over Brooklyn Park started a descending turn to the left. They would not have been over and airports(Teterboro or Westchester), and probably wouldn't not have been high enough to reach either airport. So their choices would have been highways(with many overpasses) trees/built up areas, or water.
Helicopter flying up the Hudson at 1000', just south of the G.W. Bridge, turned to the east to avoid the A320(1300-1400' AGL) gliding towards them, and then turned west apparently to assist.
Anyone get any links to liveatc for the event yet? The helo's radio calls might be interesting.
Also, check out www.maps.google.com or google earth, and you can see how crowded the area is. I-95 is the major highway running east of the G.W. bridge.
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A little bit of Fly by Wire anti stall help maybe? The A320 is really proving herself as a very sturdy aircraft. JetBlue at LAX and even the AF at the airshow comes to mind.
inadequate rafts?
Good work by pilots and cabin crew!
A passenger interviewed says that he was on the wing which was full and then reentered aircraft (!) to go up to the front door because thats where the first boat "docked"
I'm surprised that there apparently is not enough space on life rafts when the aircraft makes a sucessfull ditching?
Not many passengers seem to be wearing their life vests I in such cold waters hypothermia sets in very quickly if one has to tread water to keep afloat. Also a life jacket keeps the head above water so cold shock gasp does not lead to immediate drowning.
The passengers were still in peril all the time they were standing on the wing without lifevests even once the rescue boats arrived.
Mickjoebill
A passenger interviewed says that he was on the wing which was full and then reentered aircraft (!) to go up to the front door because thats where the first boat "docked"
I'm surprised that there apparently is not enough space on life rafts when the aircraft makes a sucessfull ditching?
Not many passengers seem to be wearing their life vests I in such cold waters hypothermia sets in very quickly if one has to tread water to keep afloat. Also a life jacket keeps the head above water so cold shock gasp does not lead to immediate drowning.
The passengers were still in peril all the time they were standing on the wing without lifevests even once the rescue boats arrived.
Mickjoebill
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A320 down in Hudson River
I agree to the above, was an engineer for over 40 years with both airlines and manufacturers. Had 3 years with USAir (as it was then) from 1987.
Always respected the guys at the sharp end and the guys and gals that have to put up with the SLF. It looks for a change that everyone listened to the crew and followed instructions and all were saved. In addition good work by the ferry companies and the Fire Dept of New York.
Well done to the FD crew in carrying out a textbook water landing.
lakerman
Always respected the guys at the sharp end and the guys and gals that have to put up with the SLF. It looks for a change that everyone listened to the crew and followed instructions and all were saved. In addition good work by the ferry companies and the Fire Dept of New York.
Well done to the FD crew in carrying out a textbook water landing.
lakerman
I'm not surprised that a flock of geese could take out both engines. While a single "V" in flight doesn't look that big, sometime the traffic density is - higher.
Birds Ascending the Heights
In terms of landing on the river, my point was precisely that: with a 20 mile x 3000 ft "runway", there is no need to stretch the glide. Come up a couple of hundred feet short, and you still have open water surface.
Come up a couple of hundred feet short at Teterboro, and you may have a burning plane and crushed buildings.
In the middle of a huge populated area, the water was the best "bailout" option. (Pun purely incidental).
Birds Ascending the Heights
In terms of landing on the river, my point was precisely that: with a 20 mile x 3000 ft "runway", there is no need to stretch the glide. Come up a couple of hundred feet short, and you still have open water surface.
Come up a couple of hundred feet short at Teterboro, and you may have a burning plane and crushed buildings.
In the middle of a huge populated area, the water was the best "bailout" option. (Pun purely incidental).
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A few points...
At flightaware it shows the max altitude of about 3200ft and 194 kts so they were probably clean when they hit the birds. The next swipe shows them descending.
Engine cert requires the engine to chuff a bird, water and ice but not BIRDS and with this on the fly-way, it may have been a flock. Contemplate throwing construction bricks in a cusinart... one blade goes.. another and then you have little to no thrust.
This was NOT a planned ditching so max kudos to the FAs for getting everyone off. I can't remember the last time I did a ditching scenario in tng.
The 320 is FBW which, as someone noted, means with envelope protection, NO stalls unless it went into direct law. Thus, no nose drop when it ditched and thus a less chance for blunt force trauma injuries.
Finally, no one on an inland flight listens to the briefing, especially the one about the life jackets. ERROR.. as this event proves.
Well done to the crew.. the entire crew and also to the rescue boats who were on the scene quickly.
At flightaware it shows the max altitude of about 3200ft and 194 kts so they were probably clean when they hit the birds. The next swipe shows them descending.
Engine cert requires the engine to chuff a bird, water and ice but not BIRDS and with this on the fly-way, it may have been a flock. Contemplate throwing construction bricks in a cusinart... one blade goes.. another and then you have little to no thrust.
This was NOT a planned ditching so max kudos to the FAs for getting everyone off. I can't remember the last time I did a ditching scenario in tng.
The 320 is FBW which, as someone noted, means with envelope protection, NO stalls unless it went into direct law. Thus, no nose drop when it ditched and thus a less chance for blunt force trauma injuries.
Finally, no one on an inland flight listens to the briefing, especially the one about the life jackets. ERROR.. as this event proves.
Well done to the crew.. the entire crew and also to the rescue boats who were on the scene quickly.
Doors open?
Just a comment on "opened doors that allowed water ingress, sinking the airplane" All four PAX doors are normally manually actuated. Emergency opening will be done by pneumatic actuator, that is armed by cc before every flight and will go off as soon as door handle is lifted. If you donīt know how to release pressure from actuator, doors cannot be closed.
And overwing exits are throwaway items too.
Flight controls are powered by three systems. When both engine fail, only Blue system is operating - powered directly by RAT, providing power to move all primary flight controls in degraded mode and one out of five spoilers on each wing plus a little bit of movement of flaps. Also an emergency generator is powered by Blue hyd system. Flight ocntrol computers work in very degraded mode, but not sure if it is direct law or some protection is still retained - have to look in the books.
We were told that engine mounts on A-320 are designed to fail in case of ditching, shedding engines on the way.
Thats from my memory - twelve years ago I worked as licenced engineer on one of the first A-320.
At that time we were convinced that "Ditching" button on overhead panel is there just for the optimists and has nothing to do with reality. Now I am convinced that perfect ditching is possible!
Hats off and congratulations to the crew and first responders!
hoistop
And overwing exits are throwaway items too.
Flight controls are powered by three systems. When both engine fail, only Blue system is operating - powered directly by RAT, providing power to move all primary flight controls in degraded mode and one out of five spoilers on each wing plus a little bit of movement of flaps. Also an emergency generator is powered by Blue hyd system. Flight ocntrol computers work in very degraded mode, but not sure if it is direct law or some protection is still retained - have to look in the books.
We were told that engine mounts on A-320 are designed to fail in case of ditching, shedding engines on the way.
Thats from my memory - twelve years ago I worked as licenced engineer on one of the first A-320.
At that time we were convinced that "Ditching" button on overhead panel is there just for the optimists and has nothing to do with reality. Now I am convinced that perfect ditching is possible!
Hats off and congratulations to the crew and first responders!
hoistop
Last edited by hoistop; 15th Jan 2009 at 22:49.
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Seems the engines departed at some point. With the photos I have seen (15+ degrees nose up), the top of the engines should be visible above water.
Probably was a major factor in the amazing outcome.
Probably was a major factor in the amazing outcome.
Everything is under control.
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Recent Washington Post photo of the aircraft sinking further, boats backed off.
Last edited by Eboy; 15th Jan 2009 at 22:47. Reason: typo
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With no winds they might, and I repeat, might have enough altitude to reach Teterboro. In no way would I recommend that based on the altitude available, NW erly winter winds, and surrounding areas.
Westchester is about 10 miles to the NE, and might have been reachable, but again, not a choice I would recommend at this low altitude.
This is a decision that had to be made in a matter of tens of seconds and they look like they made the right decision.
I miswrote earlier. Their position was over the green area just east of Bedford Park, over the Brooklyn River Parkway and Webster Ave area, at their peak altitude.
Westchester is about 10 miles to the NE, and might have been reachable, but again, not a choice I would recommend at this low altitude.
This is a decision that had to be made in a matter of tens of seconds and they look like they made the right decision.
I miswrote earlier. Their position was over the green area just east of Bedford Park, over the Brooklyn River Parkway and Webster Ave area, at their peak altitude.
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<mickjoebill>>
As far as I know on most A320s there are no life rafts - the closest thing you have are the slides, that can be detached from the airframe to be used as a large flotation aid. (Disconnect girt bar and use enclosed safety knife to slash connection line to aircraft).
As far as I know on most A320s there are no life rafts - the closest thing you have are the slides, that can be detached from the airframe to be used as a large flotation aid. (Disconnect girt bar and use enclosed safety knife to slash connection line to aircraft).
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A320 have two types of slides: slide rafts (44/55 ppl) and slides. According to the pics this aircraft had slides, that can be used as flotation devices.
Last edited by cotita; 15th Jan 2009 at 23:01.
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Not the first successful ditching of a jet transport. JAL landed a DC-8 (nearly new) off SFO Nov 1968, and UAL recovered the aircraft and rehabbed it. JAL continued to fly it for several years.
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No life rafts, in spite of what the media has said or is saying.
YouTube - A320 Training - Slide Disconnection
YouTube - A320 Training - Slide Disconnection