Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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Previous post reminds me of another earlier question....
"How big the chance of both engines being hit?"
If the geese in a 'V formation' fly about three to four feet apart, and the diameter of an A320 engine inlet is about four to six feet (strictly my guess, without any googling, too late in the day), the chance is not that far from a hundred percent (elementary operational research....).
Maybe it's high time we taught those geese to go and fly and feed and roost elsewhere...?
Or maybe it needs a major crash in the Bronx, with a few hundred dead?
The threat is there, and reports quoted earlier indicate it's increasing.
The "miracle on the Hudson" should not blind us to the fact that the likeliness of this happening again is increasing steadily, and the next "incident" may well occur under less "miraculous" circumstances than this one...
CJ
"How big the chance of both engines being hit?"
If the geese in a 'V formation' fly about three to four feet apart, and the diameter of an A320 engine inlet is about four to six feet (strictly my guess, without any googling, too late in the day), the chance is not that far from a hundred percent (elementary operational research....).
Maybe it's high time we taught those geese to go and fly and feed and roost elsewhere...?
Or maybe it needs a major crash in the Bronx, with a few hundred dead?
The threat is there, and reports quoted earlier indicate it's increasing.
The "miracle on the Hudson" should not blind us to the fact that the likeliness of this happening again is increasing steadily, and the next "incident" may well occur under less "miraculous" circumstances than this one...
CJ
A question from the SLF gallery here: can any evasive action be taken in situations like that, and if yes, is it advisable? As others have shared in this discussion, geese (apparently) stick to their pre-selected heading, so it would fall upon the pilot to prevent a collision. Would the reaction of an A320 to control inputs (it's not a fighter jet, after all) allow it to change its trajectory sufficiently in 3 seconds to avoid a bird strike?
Than of course those pesky bird weighing a lot less than you have a mind of their own to zig when you expected them to stay on course.
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B-1RD Kills B-1B
from wiki:
In September 1987, a B-1B (84-0052) from the 96th Bomb Wing, 338th Bomb Squadron, Dyess AFB crashed near La Junta, Colorado, while flying on a low-level training route...
The root cause of the accident was thought to be a bird strike on a wing's leading edge during the low-level flight. The impact was severe enough to sever the fuel and hydraulic lines running along the forward spar that served that side of the aircraft, whereas the other side and its two engines functioned long enough to enable the three crew members to eject. The B-1B fleet was later modified to protect the various supply lines, which lie along the edge.[50]
GB
In September 1987, a B-1B (84-0052) from the 96th Bomb Wing, 338th Bomb Squadron, Dyess AFB crashed near La Junta, Colorado, while flying on a low-level training route...
The root cause of the accident was thought to be a bird strike on a wing's leading edge during the low-level flight. The impact was severe enough to sever the fuel and hydraulic lines running along the forward spar that served that side of the aircraft, whereas the other side and its two engines functioned long enough to enable the three crew members to eject. The B-1B fleet was later modified to protect the various supply lines, which lie along the edge.[50]
GB
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Slides/Rafts
I would like to know why they changed the colour of the slides to silver/grey as rather than the yellow that it was in the past???
Radiant heat protection to reduce damage from exposure to fire.
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A question from the SLF gallery here: can any evasive action be taken in situations like that, and if yes, is it advisable? As others have shared in this discussion, geese (apparently) stick to their pre-selected heading, so it would fall upon the pilot to prevent a collision. Would the reaction of an A320 to control inputs (it's not a fighter jet, after all) allow it to change its trajectory sufficiently in 3 seconds to avoid a bird strike?
Here is another YouTube video showing a bird strike that brought down a jet fighter, with the view being from the cockpit camera. Watch how fast the bird is upon him.
YouTube - F16 bird strike and eject
Not sure how you avoid that.
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galvonager,
I think part of the answer is in the answer to the question "how long does it take you to say ""OH SH!T"" ?
I'm serious. You've got to see first, and then assess.
That's at least a second gone (say "twenty" once.. under those circumstances seconds are very long...).
After that, whatever you do, push or pull, the aircraft you're flying DOES have a certain amount of inertia.
If you were not exactly on those birds' trajectory... you'll miss them. If you were, anything you will have done on the controls in the two remaining seconds before you hit them will not have made the slightest difference.
I often wonder here, how many people have counted "twenty, twenty, twenty" to roughly count off three second and have understood how short (or long) it can be... before answering certain posts?
CJ
I think part of the answer is in the answer to the question "how long does it take you to say ""OH SH!T"" ?
I'm serious. You've got to see first, and then assess.
That's at least a second gone (say "twenty" once.. under those circumstances seconds are very long...).
After that, whatever you do, push or pull, the aircraft you're flying DOES have a certain amount of inertia.
If you were not exactly on those birds' trajectory... you'll miss them. If you were, anything you will have done on the controls in the two remaining seconds before you hit them will not have made the slightest difference.
I often wonder here, how many people have counted "twenty, twenty, twenty" to roughly count off three second and have understood how short (or long) it can be... before answering certain posts?
CJ
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Jet engines cant digest birds well , would propeller aircraft generally fare better or would damage to the blades render them even worse in bird strikes?
(Admittedly turbo-prop)
10 March 1960. A Lockheed Electra turbo-prop ingested European starlings into all 4 engines during takeoff from Boston Logan Airport (MA). The plane crashed into Boston Harbor, killing 62 people. Following this accident, the FAA initiated action to develop minimum bird ingestion standards for turbine-powered engines.
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It kind of makes me think about you as a passenger being relocated from a left window seat to a right window seat in 3 secs. The aircraft weighing a lot more would have a great deal more resistance to moving that far.
So, is there consensus, that in cases like this, where you see the birds just small seconds before intersecting them, you can't realistically expect to be able to do anything to avoid them?
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avoidance
I don't think avoidance is a realistic possibility in all cases.
1) Night
2) high altitude with high speeds.
Luckily, 1&2 are rarer cases.
Still, even low and slow and in daylight is not conducive to fast evasive action. Also there is the possibility of going the wrong way even if such action is taken (ryanair).
1) Night
2) high altitude with high speeds.
Luckily, 1&2 are rarer cases.
Still, even low and slow and in daylight is not conducive to fast evasive action. Also there is the possibility of going the wrong way even if such action is taken (ryanair).
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Morbos, some factual corrections:
1. The bird strike rate is actually slightly higher at night.
2. High altitude events are not that rare either.
Those who choose to fly above 250 knots below 10,000 ft. are playing with fire.
Take a,long and hard look at the physics and the certification standards for aircraft and engines and you will most likely change your operating speeds.
Despite what many think bird behaviour can be managed to yield significant reduction in bird strike risks. Success requires an integrated apporach to the problem.
Unfortunately, wildlife management regulations are poor or non-existent and not science driven and performance based. The evolution in regulations is slow. Canada has enacted decent regulations, but it still requires that all the stakeholders buy in to make a difference.
1. The bird strike rate is actually slightly higher at night.
2. High altitude events are not that rare either.
Those who choose to fly above 250 knots below 10,000 ft. are playing with fire.
Take a,long and hard look at the physics and the certification standards for aircraft and engines and you will most likely change your operating speeds.
Despite what many think bird behaviour can be managed to yield significant reduction in bird strike risks. Success requires an integrated apporach to the problem.
Unfortunately, wildlife management regulations are poor or non-existent and not science driven and performance based. The evolution in regulations is slow. Canada has enacted decent regulations, but it still requires that all the stakeholders buy in to make a difference.
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galvonager
as a pilot, I think your question is quite valid. I learned to fly 34 years ago at a small airport right next to a bird sanctuary. I learned how to avoid birds as some learn cross wind landings...part of the routine.
Contrary to the other answers you received, I believe the answer is yes, you can maneuver an airliner and avoid birds. I've even reminded my colleagues of the maneuver and they seem to agree. I've decided not to publish my maneuver here, but should the need arise, I would certainly use it. I think it would be quite easy if you had a true 3 seconds.
It was a good question and the answers you have received don't do it justice.
For those of you wondering what the maneuver is and why I don't publish it here, if I were wrong, I wouldn't want it on my shoulders. But I would do it in a heartbeat and changing, even a few feet, might save you.
Contrary to the other answers you received, I believe the answer is yes, you can maneuver an airliner and avoid birds. I've even reminded my colleagues of the maneuver and they seem to agree. I've decided not to publish my maneuver here, but should the need arise, I would certainly use it. I think it would be quite easy if you had a true 3 seconds.
It was a good question and the answers you have received don't do it justice.
For those of you wondering what the maneuver is and why I don't publish it here, if I were wrong, I wouldn't want it on my shoulders. But I would do it in a heartbeat and changing, even a few feet, might save you.
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I was under the impression most birds are only day VFR 
most don't fly at night or in cloud. The occasional owl or predatory bird might fly at night.
You rarely see common species of birds flying past dusk, I see them all heading for their nests to rest and avoid predators.
most don't fly at night or in cloud. The occasional owl or predatory bird might fly at night.You rarely see common species of birds flying past dusk, I see them all heading for their nests to rest and avoid predators.
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Birds Fly at Night
I hit a Mallard Duck at 12,000ft., IMC in a DC-3 while picking up light rime ice.
Being warm bodied, I guess the Duck wasn't worried about the icing. He had hot wings; all I had were boots and prop alcohol that I could smell when it was on.
Feet and feathers in the right windshield wiper were the identifying parts.
Being warm bodied, I guess the Duck wasn't worried about the icing. He had hot wings; all I had were boots and prop alcohol that I could smell when it was on.
Feet and feathers in the right windshield wiper were the identifying parts.
I've had one at night at 9,500 feet in VMC. There is nothing I wouldn't believe in aviation!! Birds are a problem, but "playing with fire", I'm not so certain. I could see a day where we do what Dover AFB does during migration seasons, have a "controller" who can see birds on a radar tuned to see birds and perhaps restrict ops during peak times. But will airlines and passengers stand for waiting for an hour to avoid birds or, as Dover does, close down during sunrise and sunset hours.
GF
GF
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Bird RADAR
I've already come to that conclusion. Get an old WX RADAR dedicated to bird watching at certain airports.
The DC-3s I flew in the 70s didn't have RADAR, however, we were often successful in getting the bored Center Controllers to tune their sets to paint weather when there was T'storm activity. At 2 or 3AM they didn't have much to do.
Occasionally, a controller was "too busy". I ended up flying through large cells on three occasions. All I can say is that the DC-3 is well built.
The DC-3s I flew in the 70s didn't have RADAR, however, we were often successful in getting the bored Center Controllers to tune their sets to paint weather when there was T'storm activity. At 2 or 3AM they didn't have much to do.
Occasionally, a controller was "too busy". I ended up flying through large cells on three occasions. All I can say is that the DC-3 is well built.
Bottums Up
Multiple bird strikes flying into Timika in West Irian (WABP) on two consecutive Friday evenings some years ago.
Both resulted in #4 coming off the wing, one was cooked, the other not.
Both resulted in #4 coming off the wing, one was cooked, the other not.
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more birds at night
On Jul 29, 2007, at 4:16 in the morning, an An-12 hit a flock of birds on climb-out from UUDD at between 220' and 250' AGL. No.3&4 quit, no.1&2 weren't enough to maintain altitude. The aircraft hit trees and crashed. All 7 crew perished.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Migrating geese tend to fly at night, at high altitude above cloud or at least in clear air. They will happily climb, india mike, to reach clear air. The climb can take an hour or more.
On avoidance, at 300 kts the aircraft is flying at approximately 1500 feet in 3 seconds or just over a quarter mile. If it takes one second to appreciate the potential for collision you are just 1000 feet away.
In this instance the aircraft was in a climb at possibly 30 feet per second rate of climb. The perception problem is in 3 dimensions and the PF believed they would pass over the birds.
You have 2 seconds left . . .
On avoidance, at 300 kts the aircraft is flying at approximately 1500 feet in 3 seconds or just over a quarter mile. If it takes one second to appreciate the potential for collision you are just 1000 feet away.
In this instance the aircraft was in a climb at possibly 30 feet per second rate of climb. The perception problem is in 3 dimensions and the PF believed they would pass over the birds.
You have 2 seconds left . . .
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Here is another example of a birdstrike at night!
21 Oct 2007 Nocturnal birdstrike with a song thrush (c.73 g)
British Mediterranean (BMed), A320, struck en route in the UK on 21 Oct 2007.
21 Oct 2007 Nocturnal birdstrike with a song thrush (c.73 g)
British Mediterranean (BMed), A320, struck en route in the UK on 21 Oct 2007.