Whats with BCN approach??
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Gary Lager,
reading your "previous" (guv ) it sounds like you are flying Orange Scarebuses.
I am more luddite in blue & yellow. They have no mechanism to facilitate this that I know of, probably would if the IAA would allow ( & then charge them the airport/wheelchair/etc etc taxes
)
reading your "previous" (guv ) it sounds like you are flying Orange Scarebuses.
I am more luddite in blue & yellow. They have no mechanism to facilitate this that I know of, probably would if the IAA would allow ( & then charge them the airport/wheelchair/etc etc taxes
)
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BCN back to topic
I fly into BCN quite a lot and I have found it is an airport that does need a lot of situational awareness with aircraft flowing in from the north-east and south-west to the 25 approach; in other words coming from opposite directions; interweaving, some offered early intercepts as the situation evolves. So it is not a place to just sit back and let the controller do all the work! We do have TCAS; and surely can make a good stab at anticipating what will come next?
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Ah sorry cps, unlike you I was too lazy to check facts. Shame that FR don't operate such a system - it doesn't cost anything & I know I've seen FR pilots at training events at LTCC so there must be some people in the company with the the right idea.
Anyway, my feelings on the thread topic - who's flying the aircraft? BCN (or any other) ATC or the crew? If you don't like something, don't accept it, file an ASR and follow it up. I operate there frequently and whilst certain protocols and assumptions are not the same as other parts of Europe, I take that into account and operate with an appropriate level of caution. I don't think that PPRuNe is the any way to get anything changed.
Anyway, my feelings on the thread topic - who's flying the aircraft? BCN (or any other) ATC or the crew? If you don't like something, don't accept it, file an ASR and follow it up. I operate there frequently and whilst certain protocols and assumptions are not the same as other parts of Europe, I take that into account and operate with an appropriate level of caution. I don't think that PPRuNe is the any way to get anything changed.
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Don't think BCN is so different to anywhere else (mind you I normally go there @midnight coz home has gone out of limits, used to go a lot though in a previous "life" ). If you want to see really ridiculously high vectoring try Ciampino (via Ostia) or the less well known (to non RYR ) NRN where you are kept high due to DUS departures or indeed Forli ,Altenburg and countless others. Every time we defy the laws of physics and get the devil down with 2/ 3rds (or sometimes half) the normal track miles ATC can see what aces we are so don't think twice about doing it again. At somewhere like LHR or STN they would "usually" ask before spinning you a wide ball. In BCN & it's ilk I am not entirely sure they even notice they are setting you up, and if they do, they probably expect you to object if you are unhappy. A little bit "Manana" perhaps on their part, but at least it saves you dying of boredom 
To answer the original post " you have to excuse her, she comes from Barcelona" insert John Cleese accent.
To answer the original post " you have to excuse her, she comes from Barcelona" insert John Cleese accent.
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If you don't like something, don't accept it, file an ASR and follow it up.
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I'd go one further than that and say "if you don't like something, refuse to do it".
However ...
Have you ever flown for any airlines that are run by accountants? Have you ever faced the prospect of a little discrimination (sorry, I mean landing priority delays) based on the nationality of your carrier? The prospect of a Eurocontrol slot being lost and the next God knows how long being stuck on the ground. How about not getting back in time to see your 5 year old son on his birthday before he goes to bed. They are all things that should not weigh on your mind, but for most of us they will to a greater or lesser extent.
As long as these things are allowed to happen then there will continue to be destablised approaches caused by the likes of 120 degree intercepts. Perhaps we should have a new thread entitled "All the problems with our airline, ATC, routes etc. that detrimentaly impair my ability to do my job as well as I would like to.
Ah well - rant over, back to work in 4 hours
RIX
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Spanish ATC
Hi guys!
I'm flying for the last 10 years in one of the two Spanish carriers that (according to some of you) seems to get priority at BCN. I am not going to defend any lobby position here. I fly all around western Europe and I'll try to be as objective as I can.
As a Spaniard and after 15 years of domestic flying, I have the right to say
Spanish ATC........ just sucks.
We should not compare it to the worst ATC's, but rather to the best ones.
UK is an example of how to do it. You just notice that they have airmanship.
In Spain they don't even know what that is, but that's not the problem..... the thing is they don't give a damm
about speaking an understandable English or improving their quality service.
They are rather concerned about golf, snowboard, vacation destinations and sport cars.
Believe me, I've taken many ATCO's that prefer to travel in the cabin (business class drinking whiskey) than in the CKP.
Do you have any idea of how much a Spanish ATCO with 10 years of service (rather than experience) earns?
Well, I know some of them that finish the year with around 200K€ after taxes.
Do (there are always exceptions, of course) they deserve that money????
The answer is straight forward!!!
European amazing salaries for african services?!!
Gibas.
I'm flying for the last 10 years in one of the two Spanish carriers that (according to some of you) seems to get priority at BCN. I am not going to defend any lobby position here. I fly all around western Europe and I'll try to be as objective as I can.
As a Spaniard and after 15 years of domestic flying, I have the right to say
Spanish ATC........ just sucks.
We should not compare it to the worst ATC's, but rather to the best ones.
UK is an example of how to do it. You just notice that they have airmanship.
In Spain they don't even know what that is, but that's not the problem..... the thing is they don't give a damm
about speaking an understandable English or improving their quality service.They are rather concerned about golf, snowboard, vacation destinations and sport cars.
Believe me, I've taken many ATCO's that prefer to travel in the cabin (business class drinking whiskey) than in the CKP.
Do you have any idea of how much a Spanish ATCO with 10 years of service (rather than experience) earns?
Well, I know some of them that finish the year with around 200K€ after taxes.
Do (there are always exceptions, of course) they deserve that money????
The answer is straight forward!!!
European amazing salaries for african services?!!
Gibas.
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was there last night-awful! shocking english and i could barely understand clearances. runway change on the taxi out and they couldnt comprehend why we needed 2 minutes at the hold short before we could depart. dont get me started about the dispatcher-15early in.finish the day 30mins late.....
always seem to have problems in spain!last trip was a sporting R.A to keep things consistent
always seem to have problems in spain!last trip was a sporting R.A to keep things consistent
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Hi guys,
well i am i spain now for 2 years flying for a spanish airline. at the begining I had a few unstabilized approaches due to the fact that ATC was "different" wich was a real pain in the Butt.
unexpected short cuts, intercept from above, reduce sppe, increase speed, etc etc etc. fact is in BCN, if your new in this are, be very aware of sudden strange instructions during your approach. I must say they are learning and improving by the day, but not fast enough.
now, just as I hear the voice of the ATC controller, I know already if I have to prepare myself for a special approach full of adrenaline and cursing with the worst words in english , spanish and any other language i can remember, fun for those who will listen to the CVR :-P
the bes thing is to just keep an eye on the distance they put you to the traffic ahead of you, and always ask what is the type of aicraft preceeding, they forget sometimes to tell you that i is a B747 or a heavy traffic with minimum to less than minimum separation, from tht point on i manage my approach so as to maintain the safe distance to the preceeding aircraft, i really dont care about who is behind me , thats ATC problem, I concentrate on the traffic in front of me, i manage speed as necessary to have a stabilized approach.
but trust me when i tell you this, i flew also in eastern europe there are really worse places than BCN. I was once cleared into Krakau airport, in the night with FOG an the airport is only CAT I and RVR was less than 100meters for an ILS approach, ATC did not even care about the RVR, they actually even ask us if we are OK for that, now I laugh about it, but at that time i was practicing my multilingual cursing.
Hope that adds a light to you guys.
well i am i spain now for 2 years flying for a spanish airline. at the begining I had a few unstabilized approaches due to the fact that ATC was "different" wich was a real pain in the Butt.
unexpected short cuts, intercept from above, reduce sppe, increase speed, etc etc etc. fact is in BCN, if your new in this are, be very aware of sudden strange instructions during your approach. I must say they are learning and improving by the day, but not fast enough.
now, just as I hear the voice of the ATC controller, I know already if I have to prepare myself for a special approach full of adrenaline and cursing with the worst words in english , spanish and any other language i can remember, fun for those who will listen to the CVR :-P
the bes thing is to just keep an eye on the distance they put you to the traffic ahead of you, and always ask what is the type of aicraft preceeding, they forget sometimes to tell you that i is a B747 or a heavy traffic with minimum to less than minimum separation, from tht point on i manage my approach so as to maintain the safe distance to the preceeding aircraft, i really dont care about who is behind me , thats ATC problem, I concentrate on the traffic in front of me, i manage speed as necessary to have a stabilized approach.
but trust me when i tell you this, i flew also in eastern europe there are really worse places than BCN. I was once cleared into Krakau airport, in the night with FOG an the airport is only CAT I and RVR was less than 100meters for an ILS approach, ATC did not even care about the RVR, they actually even ask us if we are OK for that, now I laugh about it, but at that time i was practicing my multilingual cursing.
Hope that adds a light to you guys.
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same old story. you love it eh. Bcn bla bla bla. Just a bit of flying around the world and you will see is not so bad. But if your flying is just north to the spanish coast and return, obviously you have nothing to compare it with. I have been flying all over the world and let me tell you the only time i felt I was going to die due to a radar vector was in Las Vegas USA, straight into a mountain. So, get a life mate
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Last week I asked to cut across the landing r/w to shorten the ridiculous taxi, obviously I was refused which didn't bother me, until a local airbus which pushed behind me, did exactly that and departed ahead of me.
Complete Joke
I think the controlling there has deteriorated significantly in the last couple of years
Complete Joke
I think the controlling there has deteriorated significantly in the last couple of years
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There's short cuts and there's short cuts.
On the one hand you have the achieveable but tricky. A competant pilot can line up his ducks to cope with that, or, if you get caught out, 'fess up and say you need more track miles.
Then there is the rediculous. The "so-completely-impossible-why-are-you-wasting-time-asking-me" category.
e.g. Downwind at BCN, held at 9k for conflicting traffic underneath, then told to turn and intercept with what would have been about 11 track miles. Obviously I declined, but really, what planet was the ATCO on?
I heard another crew were offered the same. Their response? "Negative ma'am this is an airliner not a grand piano"
pb
On the one hand you have the achieveable but tricky. A competant pilot can line up his ducks to cope with that, or, if you get caught out, 'fess up and say you need more track miles.
Then there is the rediculous. The "so-completely-impossible-why-are-you-wasting-time-asking-me" category.
e.g. Downwind at BCN, held at 9k for conflicting traffic underneath, then told to turn and intercept with what would have been about 11 track miles. Obviously I declined, but really, what planet was the ATCO on?
I heard another crew were offered the same. Their response? "Negative ma'am this is an airliner not a grand piano"
pb
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Experience 1.
10 mile final, 25R, we spot an aircraft on TCAS heading suspiciously towards the LOC from the east. When said aircraft (MD80 - guess who) is vectored 3 miles in front of us, we question this with ATC. It is then us who are broken off the approach and put the the back of the 'queue'
Experience 2
Vacated 25R, onto the first taxiway (T I think it is).
Ground: XXX123, taxi left Tango, (garbled) right Hotel, stand E3
Us: Taxi Left Tango, Right Hotel to Stand E3, XXX123.
Imagine my surprise then as the Captain starts the right turn onto Hotel to cross the Seirra taxiway to see another MD80 (guess who) hurtling down Seirra from our right, only just avoiding a collision thanks to the quick braking from the Captain. When we questioned ATC, they had a go at US claimed that they said "AFTER the (guess who), right Hotel stand E3.
I thought that the whole point of a read back was to confirm that the instruction had been understood?
LEBL - expect the unexpected, have eyes in the back of your head!
10 mile final, 25R, we spot an aircraft on TCAS heading suspiciously towards the LOC from the east. When said aircraft (MD80 - guess who) is vectored 3 miles in front of us, we question this with ATC. It is then us who are broken off the approach and put the the back of the 'queue'
Experience 2
Vacated 25R, onto the first taxiway (T I think it is).
Ground: XXX123, taxi left Tango, (garbled) right Hotel, stand E3
Us: Taxi Left Tango, Right Hotel to Stand E3, XXX123.
Imagine my surprise then as the Captain starts the right turn onto Hotel to cross the Seirra taxiway to see another MD80 (guess who) hurtling down Seirra from our right, only just avoiding a collision thanks to the quick braking from the Captain. When we questioned ATC, they had a go at US claimed that they said "AFTER the (guess who), right Hotel stand E3.
I thought that the whole point of a read back was to confirm that the instruction had been understood?
LEBL - expect the unexpected, have eyes in the back of your head!
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Hi folks.
I've come across this post thanks to a fellow work colleague at LECB (Barcelona Air Traffic Control Center) who was reading through everything that you guys have been sharing here. When I asked him about the issue being commented he replied, "you know, the usual bashing we get"... I immediately asked him whether he was going to step into the conversation and his reply was "there's no point, whatever you try to comment will always be bashed again..."
So, although I am currently not working on BCN Approach and you guys can only come across me on higher en-route sectors I would like to state for the record a couple of things:
- We are FED UP of being portraid as the worst air traffic control service in the world (and beyond as someone stated).
- We are in the business for the same reason as each of you guys, to maintain the strictest measures of safety and order while allowing people and cargo travel to and from.
- We are always a telephone call away after any event/issue/incident.
- We are available 24/7 for visits around any centre and tower.
- We are willing to learn, listen, correct and go to any length in order to offer you guys a better service.
These are the facts. First hand. And I know I'm speaking for a large percentage of my colleagues.
Thanks for your time.
I've come across this post thanks to a fellow work colleague at LECB (Barcelona Air Traffic Control Center) who was reading through everything that you guys have been sharing here. When I asked him about the issue being commented he replied, "you know, the usual bashing we get"... I immediately asked him whether he was going to step into the conversation and his reply was "there's no point, whatever you try to comment will always be bashed again..."
So, although I am currently not working on BCN Approach and you guys can only come across me on higher en-route sectors I would like to state for the record a couple of things:
- We are FED UP of being portraid as the worst air traffic control service in the world (and beyond as someone stated).
- We are in the business for the same reason as each of you guys, to maintain the strictest measures of safety and order while allowing people and cargo travel to and from.
- We are always a telephone call away after any event/issue/incident.
- We are available 24/7 for visits around any centre and tower.
- We are willing to learn, listen, correct and go to any length in order to offer you guys a better service.
These are the facts. First hand. And I know I'm speaking for a large percentage of my colleagues.
Thanks for your time.
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Ah good! I'm glad you've noticed this thread! I've just flown back from LEBL and I would like to raise a couple of issues:
If the principle language of aviation is english, why don't you use it? It would boost our SA considerably. So would standard phraseology for that matter.
You blatently stick as many Iberia aircraft infront of us as you physically can, is this not a prejudice and therefore against the principles of fair trade in europe?
Thanks for the invite to the tower, however, my Spanish lingual skills aren't that great so I fear it may be a waste of time.
If the principle language of aviation is english, why don't you use it? It would boost our SA considerably. So would standard phraseology for that matter.
You blatently stick as many Iberia aircraft infront of us as you physically can, is this not a prejudice and therefore against the principles of fair trade in europe?
Thanks for the invite to the tower, however, my Spanish lingual skills aren't that great so I fear it may be a waste of time.
Jlms.
While many of your colleagues at Barcelona may do their best to be professional a significant number are highly unprofessional, and it is this group that has given Barcelona Air Traffic its reputation. Only last week I was vectored through the center of 25R to the south just for ATC to feed in an Iberia from behind us.
This is a common occurrence and similar examples are repeated on a daily basis both in the air and on the ground. Madrid ATC do the same adding many track miles to arrivals just to feed you in behind another Spannair or Iberia.
Unfortunately this unprofessional bias towards Spanish aircraft by a significant number of Spanish controllers has given Barcelona and Madrid controllers their poor reputation.
While many of your colleagues at Barcelona may do their best to be professional a significant number are highly unprofessional, and it is this group that has given Barcelona Air Traffic its reputation. Only last week I was vectored through the center of 25R to the south just for ATC to feed in an Iberia from behind us.
This is a common occurrence and similar examples are repeated on a daily basis both in the air and on the ground. Madrid ATC do the same adding many track miles to arrivals just to feed you in behind another Spannair or Iberia.
Unfortunately this unprofessional bias towards Spanish aircraft by a significant number of Spanish controllers has given Barcelona and Madrid controllers their poor reputation.
