Continental 737 Off Runway at DEN
"The way I understood it from the NTSB briefing video was:
1) the first officer noticed drifting off track when passing 90...93 knots.
2) runway track marks indicate a skid began at 1900 feet from threshold.
....and 3) Plane travelled another 700 feet before actually departing the runway.
"Why was runway 25 or 26 not used since the winds were more favorable from the west?"
As I mentioned prviously, I heard at least one other plane request 26 for LANDING as I was pax on inbound United flight to KDEN. (and it was approved by ATC)
To depart on 26, however, requires about a 3-mile taxi north and east into the prairie, whereas 34 L/R begin adjacent to the terminal with only about a 300-yd taxi.
Departing runway 25 is a shorter taxi, but requires taking off UNDER traffic inbound for 34 L/R.
Since most here, and presumably the 1404 pilots, thought the winds were within the capabilities of a 737, I guess it didn't seem worth the time.
1) the first officer noticed drifting off track when passing 90...93 knots.
2) runway track marks indicate a skid began at 1900 feet from threshold.
....and 3) Plane travelled another 700 feet before actually departing the runway.
"Why was runway 25 or 26 not used since the winds were more favorable from the west?"
As I mentioned prviously, I heard at least one other plane request 26 for LANDING as I was pax on inbound United flight to KDEN. (and it was approved by ATC)
To depart on 26, however, requires about a 3-mile taxi north and east into the prairie, whereas 34 L/R begin adjacent to the terminal with only about a 300-yd taxi.
Departing runway 25 is a shorter taxi, but requires taking off UNDER traffic inbound for 34 L/R.
Since most here, and presumably the 1404 pilots, thought the winds were within the capabilities of a 737, I guess it didn't seem worth the time.
Rwy 25 was in use at the time of the accident. I was in the back of F9heading to it to commute home after my 3 day. DEN has a habit of sending you to the rwy that least conflicts with other aircraft. If your going west, runway 25, if your heading east to south its one of the 34's. Usually 34R. As far as the comment about possible conflictions with 34L/R and departing 25, there is none. The runways are far enough apart that they can do simo ops. I've overflown traffic departing 25 when landing north.
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Having to accept out of wind (or even down-wind) runways is a worldwide problem, usually due to the "noise-brigade".
As long as their voices are heard louder than ours it will be the norm at places like AMS, BRU & ZRH in Europe.
As long as their voices are heard louder than ours it will be the norm at places like AMS, BRU & ZRH in Europe.
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Read my post #199.
Ultimately the Captain decides what runway to use, or NOT to use, even if it means going back to the gate! Wake up guys/gals.....who's in control? Or better yet, who is ultimately responsible?
Ultimately the Captain decides what runway to use, or NOT to use, even if it means going back to the gate! Wake up guys/gals.....who's in control? Or better yet, who is ultimately responsible?
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Edmund,
I wonder if the designs are relatively "frozen", despite advances in electronics, IT, etc. It may not be feasible to upgrade the FDR faster than every 5-10 years, due to a desire for uniformity.
I wonder if the designs are relatively "frozen", despite advances in electronics, IT, etc. It may not be feasible to upgrade the FDR faster than every 5-10 years, due to a desire for uniformity.
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I said shared responsibility. Read some of the NTSB reports. When the final NTSB report comes out and if the cross wind was a major factor you watch some blame assigned to the controller.
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The primary responsibility for ATC and controllers is safety. Expedited and uniform traffic flow is secondary. Active runways are generally assigned based on prevaililng winds. In this case the active runway should have been 25 or 26 which the wind favored. Yes, pilots are ultimately responsible for safety of flight but they also have to depend on controllers for safety.
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'beechf33a' writes:
"The primary responsibility for ATC and controllers is safety. Expedited and uniform traffic flow is secondary. Active runways are generally assigned based on prevaililng winds. In this case the active runway should have been 25 or 26 which the wind favored. Yes, pilots are ultimately responsible for safety of flight but they also have to depend on controllers for safety."
1st two sentences are alright. Third sentence is not necessarily true. 4th sentence would've been nice but not required. Apparently you haven't done much flying. Or, have you done any?
Bottom line once again: the Captain has the ultimate authority AND responsibility.....period.
"The primary responsibility for ATC and controllers is safety. Expedited and uniform traffic flow is secondary. Active runways are generally assigned based on prevaililng winds. In this case the active runway should have been 25 or 26 which the wind favored. Yes, pilots are ultimately responsible for safety of flight but they also have to depend on controllers for safety."
1st two sentences are alright. Third sentence is not necessarily true. 4th sentence would've been nice but not required. Apparently you haven't done much flying. Or, have you done any?
Bottom line once again: the Captain has the ultimate authority AND responsibility.....period.
Active runways are generally assigned based on prevaililng winds.
Below is the KABQ runway use program. Its the most detailed one I could find in short order. It goes far beyond simply assigning a runway based on the winds. If DEN ATC was working within the constraints of it's plan then I think the individual controllers will fare well.
http://www.cabq.gov/airport/document...eabatement.pdf
Below is a partial excert from DEN's program.
Boeing Company
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Yes...and note the following two paragraphs contained in the Denver info.
"Pilots of departing aircraft requesting to use a runway or deviate from flight tracks other than in conformance with this Informal Runway Use Program for reasons of operational necessity are expected to advise DIA Ramp Control prior to pushback or upon initial contact. When able, DIA Ramp Control shall advise that the requested runway or flight track is a deviation from this Informal Runway Use Program."
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"The FAA ATCT will assign runways deemed to have the least noise impact. If, in the interest of safety, a runway different from that specified is preferred, the pilot is expected to advise ATC accordingly. ATC will honor requests and advise pilots when the requested runway is noise sensitive."
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All the Captain has to do is ask/advise.....simple.
Please note also, that I in no way am implying that they used the 'wrong' runway in this incident. That has not been brought out.
"Pilots of departing aircraft requesting to use a runway or deviate from flight tracks other than in conformance with this Informal Runway Use Program for reasons of operational necessity are expected to advise DIA Ramp Control prior to pushback or upon initial contact. When able, DIA Ramp Control shall advise that the requested runway or flight track is a deviation from this Informal Runway Use Program."
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"The FAA ATCT will assign runways deemed to have the least noise impact. If, in the interest of safety, a runway different from that specified is preferred, the pilot is expected to advise ATC accordingly. ATC will honor requests and advise pilots when the requested runway is noise sensitive."
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All the Captain has to do is ask/advise.....simple.
Please note also, that I in no way am implying that they used the 'wrong' runway in this incident. That has not been brought out.
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Response to DC-ATE
I cannot understand why you think I am questioning the pilots athority and think I have no flying experience. Anyone with any flying experience should know that the pilot is the ultimate and final athority, period! For your information I have most all the single and mullti ratings including ATP. I have about 6,000 hours mostly as flight instructor. Also, I have an A&P and AI. I had three years experience in the Navy as an air traffic controller befor being accepted for flight training. I was a Naval Aviator when I left the Navy. Only the best were accepted for training and then it was a weeding out process. Any average person can learn to drive an airplane. Most pilots would wash out of controller training.
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"I cannot understand why you think I am questioning the pilots athority and think I have no flying experience. Anyone with any flying experience should know that the pilot is the ultimate and final athority, period!"
That's what I've been trying to point out. Yet you keep bringing up ATC's possilbe role in this incident. All I'm saying is unless ATC gave false information that the crew based their decision on in this case, ATC was not at fault.
I'm glad you realize that the Captain has the ultimate and final AUTHORITY.
Good luck with your flying.
That's what I've been trying to point out. Yet you keep bringing up ATC's possilbe role in this incident. All I'm saying is unless ATC gave false information that the crew based their decision on in this case, ATC was not at fault.
I'm glad you realize that the Captain has the ultimate and final AUTHORITY.
Good luck with your flying.
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Riiiight
"The primary responsibility for ATC and controllers is safety. Expedited and uniform traffic flow is secondary. Active runways are generally assigned based on prevaililng winds. In this case the active runway should have been 25 or 26 which the wind favored."
Sorry beechf33a, but things don't always work like that in the airline world.
Sorry beechf33a, but things don't always work like that in the airline world.
things don't always work like that in the airline world.
The captain will always prevail in a request for a more into-wind runway but at a place like Denver, Chicago, Kennedy, Toronto (especially), and others it will almost always cost a 30 to 60 minute delay or a very long hold on arrival and fuel is always an issue.
In fact, the neighbourhood "noise police" have more "authority", in terms of being listened to and taken seriously by airport authorities and politicians, than the captain, when it comes to runway use. It's why airline captains aren't politicians and why politicians could never be airline captains.
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Runway Discussion
To: DC-ATE
We really have no disagreement. I was trying to point out what the NTSB would probably say in their final accident report if wind was a major factor. For example go to www.faa.gov and read the final report number AAR-07-05 concerning the wrong runway take off at Lexington, KY on August 27, 2007. The pilot was cleared to runway 22 but actually took off on 26 which was too short. The pilot did not comply with the clearance, yet the NTSB listed seven items where the controller contributed to the accident.
Best regards
We really have no disagreement. I was trying to point out what the NTSB would probably say in their final accident report if wind was a major factor. For example go to www.faa.gov and read the final report number AAR-07-05 concerning the wrong runway take off at Lexington, KY on August 27, 2007. The pilot was cleared to runway 22 but actually took off on 26 which was too short. The pilot did not comply with the clearance, yet the NTSB listed seven items where the controller contributed to the accident.
Best regards