A little Non-standard, but way more fun
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I totally agree, 737. Its no wonder some of us don't get paid as much as we ought to if this is how we express ourselves in public.
Can I ask somone to explain to a non-145 driver exactly what "gross breach of ops procedures" this fellow committed? Of course nobody WANTS a tailstrike -but is flap 45 a non-standard setting?
Can I ask somone to explain to a non-145 driver exactly what "gross breach of ops procedures" this fellow committed? Of course nobody WANTS a tailstrike -but is flap 45 a non-standard setting?
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Age: 50
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flew the plane over 5 years. Flaps 45 was the standard flap setting we did for years. My old operator then got permission to us a Flaps 22, or flaps 45 for landing. Hope that helps ya out buddy.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Colonies
Age: 47
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Greetings all, first post from a former 145 captain with 5K hours in the airplane. Flaps 45 IS the standard config for almost all landings.
No slats, so normal pitch attitude is 0-1 degrees nose-up with a normal flare attitude of 3-5 degrees nose up; having the jet's nose 10 degrees in the air is nowhere near the standard. Tailstrike occurs at between 11-13 degrees body angle. To say this FO was an idiot and the Captain was not any better is an understatement.
Unfortunately the pay offered by US regionals, coupled by the experience requirements for hiring that were ridiculously low for a few years, has led to a situation where you have many 22-23 year old kids straight from the "me generation" who have not worked for the position, and view the jet as a big Nintendo game to entertain themselves with. Most of them then decide that since the company will not pay them as professionals they have no personal desire or obligation to fly or conduct themselves as such! (end or rant)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps the F/O’s skills were not up to par. However, the captain was the one who was given the keys to the jet. All he had to say was three words… “I’ve got control.”
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aewanabe does not say that all are "stupid". In fact he/she doesn't even mention the word "stupid". He/She implies that this particular F/O was an "idiot". I think aewanabe is not far off the mark and I certainly wouldn't regard what he/she says as being applicable to all young F/Os out there.
Allow's response however displays a remarkable lack of maturity and probably does more damage to the reputation of young FOs than aewanabe's post!
Allow's response however displays a remarkable lack of maturity and probably does more damage to the reputation of young FOs than aewanabe's post!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Europe.
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sobelena I agree with you on that one, although I wasn't too sure if ALLOW's post was serious or not. I hope it was all sarcastic because otherwise it would indeed be bad publicity for guys my age.
(I'm professional though, seriously I am!!
)
(I'm professional though, seriously I am!!
)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Colonies
Age: 47
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Allow: I surely didn't mean ALL guys/gals in their early 20s are stupid or unsafe; indeed I've flown with several excellent aviators across all age spectrums. However, I heard the arguments about "they don't pay me to be professional, so why should I act that way" far more often from young guys than old'uns. Usually from a guy who knew all about the latest 5 reality shows on MTV but hadn't read the last months' worth of change notices, couldn't find non-standard ops in the QRH for me, etc.
If not wanting my FOs to put the jet in a dangerous position for their own entertainment means I'm an oldfart, then I'll wear that badge proudly! (Come to think of it, my hair has a noticeable amount of grey after a few years in the left seat...). Note that I put just as much blame on the Captain, truthfully most should lie with the PIC.
Do you have a way to justify landing a transport jet at tail-strike attitude for the fun of it? I surely hope not. In the meantime I'm fortunately moved to better things where guys with 3 times my experience are once again viewing me as the whippersnapper, so no worries about me treading on your sensitive toes with my poor CRM.
If not wanting my FOs to put the jet in a dangerous position for their own entertainment means I'm an oldfart, then I'll wear that badge proudly! (Come to think of it, my hair has a noticeable amount of grey after a few years in the left seat...). Note that I put just as much blame on the Captain, truthfully most should lie with the PIC.
Do you have a way to justify landing a transport jet at tail-strike attitude for the fun of it? I surely hope not. In the meantime I'm fortunately moved to better things where guys with 3 times my experience are once again viewing me as the whippersnapper, so no worries about me treading on your sensitive toes with my poor CRM.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In the shed
Age: 78
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My first flight instructor when I started out (in 1963) was in his early 20s. The grounding I received from him in airmanship, basic pilotage (if the word exists) and absolute attention to detail was amongst the best I ever recived. It has kept me safe (well, alive) for 45 years. The most dangerous instructor I ever had was well into hos 40s - jaded, careless and dismissive. In my experience, the attitude of flight crews often reflect the attitude of their instructors / training captains.
As this seems to have moved off towards a discussion on attitude......
Surely professionalism has nothing at all to do with remuneration.
It has everything to do with personal integrity.
Operating safely and in accordance within the requirements demonstrates integrity.
Maturity can (but not always) have an impact on integrity.
Surely professionalism has nothing at all to do with remuneration.
It has everything to do with personal integrity.
Operating safely and in accordance within the requirements demonstrates integrity.
Maturity can (but not always) have an impact on integrity.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cedar Rapids
Age: 49
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interestingly, when the Cargo B 747 had their tailstrike a few months ago, I don't recall anyone bringing up inexperiance or youth as likely contributing factors. Any airline with any equipment, if badly managed and if standards are badly enforced will likely bend metal at some point, regardless of what the crew are paid. (No implication about Cargo B or Trans State there, I have not seen the reports yet) If the truth were known, the FO probably has a history of poor decision making, and his captains and chief pilot failed to fill out the paperwork and apply discipline. Probably.
It is always amused me that I can foul up a radio call in JFK in 747 and they will repeat the clearance, while the RJ behind me can do the same thing and get yelled out. Difference being that the RJ driver probably is more experianced than I am.
It is always amused me that I can foul up a radio call in JFK in 747 and they will repeat the clearance, while the RJ behind me can do the same thing and get yelled out. Difference being that the RJ driver probably is more experianced than I am.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And the guys with the biggest power in the air, the air force pilots, are mostly in their 20s. They are being handed over the power of killing. If they handle their weapon unresponsible, big numbers of innocent people die.
Maturity, professionalism and abilities are never a question of age. It's a question of if it's the right guy with the right set of training.
Dani
Maturity, professionalism and abilities are never a question of age. It's a question of if it's the right guy with the right set of training.
Dani
Last edited by Dani; 22nd Dec 2008 at 11:23.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I don't get is how the FO got his qualifications without gaining an understanding the likely consequences of his actions in this case!
Surely is is fairly obvious that a deliberately slow approach raises the risk of a tailstrike? Talk about blatantly ignoring the flight manual...
...which of course is not really an important document - heck, it has only been written after lots of approaches by very experienced test pilots during hte aircraft certification stage.
I'm sure I once heard a saying about there being no old, bold pilots
Surely is is fairly obvious that a deliberately slow approach raises the risk of a tailstrike? Talk about blatantly ignoring the flight manual...
...which of course is not really an important document - heck, it has only been written after lots of approaches by very experienced test pilots during hte aircraft certification stage.
I'm sure I once heard a saying about there being no old, bold pilots
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've got 5,000 hours in the 145.
Back when I was a F/O a Skipper of mine used to do these high body angle touchdowns.
Personally, I was rather bemused. HE thought it quite clever-me? I looked out the side window.
Did no harm.
As usual, I know learn that it was **** practice.
Moral? "Thought it was ****, but said nowt-Should have spoken up"
Every day, a schoolday
Back when I was a F/O a Skipper of mine used to do these high body angle touchdowns.
Personally, I was rather bemused. HE thought it quite clever-me? I looked out the side window.
Did no harm.
As usual, I know learn that it was **** practice.
Moral? "Thought it was ****, but said nowt-Should have spoken up"
Every day, a schoolday
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree.
But where did this youngster get his sense of responsibility from? Of course from his trainier, superiors and line captains. You as a young pilot cannot know how much is good enough and what is already below standard. You all get teached it somehow from an older guy.
I'm sure this FO just did a "little non-standard" because some captain did something very similar earlier and explained it in the exact same wording!
Dani
But where did this youngster get his sense of responsibility from? Of course from his trainier, superiors and line captains. You as a young pilot cannot know how much is good enough and what is already below standard. You all get teached it somehow from an older guy.
I'm sure this FO just did a "little non-standard" because some captain did something very similar earlier and explained it in the exact same wording!
Dani
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Romania
Age: 43
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When something like that comes into conversation my reply is :" i believe you can do it, you are the best no argue about that but let's try it someother time, ok?"; end of story.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ***
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barbiesboyfriend:
I can absolutely see what you are talking about, and I very much agree with your last statement:
Many thinks made me think that way... afterwards. How hard is it to speak up right at that moment!
Now adding to the age discussion, that is why more accidents occure with the CPT being PF (pilot flying), not because the old one flies worse, but because the Fo has a (naturally) harder time to speak up.
But in the incident quoted in the title, the FO indicated a voluntary breach of SOP's , even beforehand, and that needs immediate reaction from the left side.
Let's not forget that it is only two lines I quoted from the herald, so it is hard to judge what really went on - I would love to see the CVR transcript of this flight !
If anybody finds more information on this, please post itor pm me - to me this is such an interessting CRM case, way more interessting than many other incidents reported here.
I believe it is an attitude problem (yes, airplane and pilot attitude), that smells of some "Cowboy" mixed with, and here I agree with some of the above, youthful inability to foresee the consequences of one's actions being paired with weekness from the left seat. But as I said, we know too little to judge.
Nic
I can absolutely see what you are talking about, and I very much agree with your last statement:
Moral? "Thought it was ****, but said nowt-Should have spoken up"
Now adding to the age discussion, that is why more accidents occure with the CPT being PF (pilot flying), not because the old one flies worse, but because the Fo has a (naturally) harder time to speak up.
But in the incident quoted in the title, the FO indicated a voluntary breach of SOP's , even beforehand, and that needs immediate reaction from the left side.
Let's not forget that it is only two lines I quoted from the herald, so it is hard to judge what really went on - I would love to see the CVR transcript of this flight !
If anybody finds more information on this, please post itor pm me - to me this is such an interessting CRM case, way more interessting than many other incidents reported here.
I believe it is an attitude problem (yes, airplane and pilot attitude), that smells of some "Cowboy" mixed with, and here I agree with some of the above, youthful inability to foresee the consequences of one's actions being paired with weekness from the left seat. But as I said, we know too little to judge.
Nic
Guest
Posts: n/a
Admiral 346
When I got a 145 command I never even though about doing what that skipper did.
If a F/O had suggested what that F/O had suggested, my alarm bells would be jangling.
The best advice I had from a (lady) jet pilot- given to me when I was a turboprop F/O, was 'don't **** about with the jets- you'll never figure out all the angles, so just don't'. I listened.
Great plane, the 145. They've built over 1,000 Barbies now and yet to lose a passenger.
Brilliant!
When I got a 145 command I never even though about doing what that skipper did.
If a F/O had suggested what that F/O had suggested, my alarm bells would be jangling.
The best advice I had from a (lady) jet pilot- given to me when I was a turboprop F/O, was 'don't **** about with the jets- you'll never figure out all the angles, so just don't'. I listened.
Great plane, the 145. They've built over 1,000 Barbies now and yet to lose a passenger.
Brilliant!
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gone to my "Happy Place".
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a few questions about this.
1. Is Flap 45 an approved Landing Flap configuration for this aircraft?
2. If yes, are there any limitations imposed on Flaps 45 landings?
3. Is so, were any of those limits violated?
4. Does the comapny training program train the pilots for Flaps 45 landings under normal conditions?
5. Does the SOP allow for non-standard flap settings during normal landings?
I'm just trying to get a btter understanding of what really happened.
1. Is Flap 45 an approved Landing Flap configuration for this aircraft?
2. If yes, are there any limitations imposed on Flaps 45 landings?
3. Is so, were any of those limits violated?
4. Does the comapny training program train the pilots for Flaps 45 landings under normal conditions?
5. Does the SOP allow for non-standard flap settings during normal landings?
I'm just trying to get a btter understanding of what really happened.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flap 45 is a normal landing flap setting. Only real limit is flap limit speed (145kts).
Now our normal setting for landing is 22 but this is a fuel saving measure. Has a slightly higher nose attitude, lower thrust setting and an extra few knots on the speed. Always check performance though!! Wouldn't want a
.
The bottom line is Vref at 50 feet smooth thrust reduction and speed will decay maybe -5kts in the flare and down in the touchdown zone. If you want to
about, buy your own barbie or do it in the sim if you are so good you have some spare time left.
You'll have to fly like a real to hit the tail on the jungle jet.
D and F
Now our normal setting for landing is 22 but this is a fuel saving measure. Has a slightly higher nose attitude, lower thrust setting and an extra few knots on the speed. Always check performance though!! Wouldn't want a
.The bottom line is Vref at 50 feet smooth thrust reduction and speed will decay maybe -5kts in the flare and down in the touchdown zone. If you want to
about, buy your own barbie or do it in the sim if you are so good you have some spare time left.You'll have to fly like a real
to hit the tail on the jungle jet.D and F