Flybe BQ400 captain's red face!
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Stue
The post I was replying to said....
Thus I was answering in the fullest sense, not just the piloting sense, which is the view I think most pax would take.
If you look at my previous posts, I have consistently said that the flying decision was the right one.
The post I was replying to said....
And if I were a passenger aboard that flight, I'd support him, too. Everything was done correctly and by the book. Where's the problem?
If you look at my previous posts, I have consistently said that the flying decision was the right one.
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No_Speed_Restriction,
Exactly, he didn't plan to go and have a look at Orly which means he may not have had the fuel for that.
He planned to return to an airfield that had 'non-precision' weather.
If he had had a go at Orly, not got in because lets face it the fog at CDG was not forecast to be Cat II so could have happened there too, then not had the fuel to re-land at his original 'non-precision weather' airfield - that indeed would have been reckless.
20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Disagree, once in the air then you dont downgrade your alternate requirement. That only exists at the planning phase before departure.
He planned to return to an airfield that had 'non-precision' weather.
If he had had a go at Orly, not got in because lets face it the fog at CDG was not forecast to be Cat II so could have happened there too, then not had the fuel to re-land at his original 'non-precision weather' airfield - that indeed would have been reckless.
20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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I’m not disagreeing with you at all F3G, but like I said, this is being discussed on a Professional Pilots Rumour Network, therefore the majority of people posting will be Professional Pilots stating that a weather diversion is a complete non event and all in a days work.
A passengers take on what was said on the PA though? Now that might be completely different, but I wasn’t there so I don’t know what was said, so I can’t comment.
A passengers take on what was said on the PA though? Now that might be completely different, but I wasn’t there so I don’t know what was said, so I can’t comment.
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As I'm sure you know, CAT 2/3 on 09L/27R normally equates to CAT I on 08R/26L (then again $hit happens and it could have been thicker on both sides). Reckless at attempting an approach at Orly where the weather was more than likely better and a suitable/standard alternate for CDG?.....disagree.
would like to see the Metars/Taf's on the day in question out of interest.
would like to see the Metars/Taf's on the day in question out of interest.
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Judging by some of the posts, all airlines have dozens of spare a/c and heaps of pilots doing nothing, just waiting to replace some other pilot "in case of". Small wonder so many airlines have difficulties these days...
Everyone proposing that an airline should simply replace the cpt with someone else should bear in mind that the roster is run to schedule, people have leaves, go for sim sessions etc. etc. Maybe you think that dispatch guys have this kind of dialogue daily:
"Joe, there is this flight to CDG, RVR is forecast to be less than 500, but the proposed Captain is only CAT I certified, what do we do?"
"Ah, don't worry Jim, fortunately we have 50 replacament drivers available on standby, and btw. all based in Cardiff!"
"Wow, and 20 of them incidentally right now in the terminal longue, so it will only take 3 minutes to change the crew".
That's just life. I remember an E145 wanting to go to Munich, ready at 15UTC. But Munich was ATM CAT III, while said E145 and its crew weren't. Forecast said CATIII was expected to last until 23UTC, and CFMU imposed a zero-rate to all flights without "cat III" in rmk section, resulting in a CTOT at 2130 for the unlucky Embraer. They just had to sit and wait, calling us from time to time "we're still ready, just opening the door for a moment to disembark a passenger that doesn't want to wait".
Everyone proposing that an airline should simply replace the cpt with someone else should bear in mind that the roster is run to schedule, people have leaves, go for sim sessions etc. etc. Maybe you think that dispatch guys have this kind of dialogue daily:
"Joe, there is this flight to CDG, RVR is forecast to be less than 500, but the proposed Captain is only CAT I certified, what do we do?"
"Ah, don't worry Jim, fortunately we have 50 replacament drivers available on standby, and btw. all based in Cardiff!"
"Wow, and 20 of them incidentally right now in the terminal longue, so it will only take 3 minutes to change the crew".
That's just life. I remember an E145 wanting to go to Munich, ready at 15UTC. But Munich was ATM CAT III, while said E145 and its crew weren't. Forecast said CATIII was expected to last until 23UTC, and CFMU imposed a zero-rate to all flights without "cat III" in rmk section, resulting in a CTOT at 2130 for the unlucky Embraer. They just had to sit and wait, calling us from time to time "we're still ready, just opening the door for a moment to disembark a passenger that doesn't want to wait".
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No_Speed_Restriction,
I said it would have been reckless if he had not planned enough fuel to have a look at Orly. It is also possible he was told by OPS to return to base if he could not get in to CDG.
Why didn't he take enough fuel to have a go at CDG then Orly then return to base ? ..........Don't know. Perhaps that much fuel wasn't an option, perhaps OPS had a play to part.
Like you I wasn't sitting behind the guy when he was making these decisions so am not well placed to criticise.
I said it would have been reckless if he had not planned enough fuel to have a look at Orly. It is also possible he was told by OPS to return to base if he could not get in to CDG.
Why didn't he take enough fuel to have a go at CDG then Orly then return to base ? ..........Don't know. Perhaps that much fuel wasn't an option, perhaps OPS had a play to part.
Like you I wasn't sitting behind the guy when he was making these decisions so am not well placed to criticise.
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He can't "have a go" if the actual wx is below the minima for himself or his aircraft.
Time spent holding for an improvement once you pass a certain hour on a winter evening is often just time ( &fuel) that could be usefully employed going somewhere more suitable ( & legal) Cut your losses & get out of there is often the best solution (conversely not in the morning perhaps) which appears to be what was done. How many more pages can we dedicate to a total non-event.
BTW totally agree with previous comments regards P.A content, totally advocate the "mushroom treatment" ( keep em in the dark & feed them sh1t) or at any rate something that can't be regurgitated & misconstrued.
Time spent holding for an improvement once you pass a certain hour on a winter evening is often just time ( &fuel) that could be usefully employed going somewhere more suitable ( & legal) Cut your losses & get out of there is often the best solution (conversely not in the morning perhaps) which appears to be what was done. How many more pages can we dedicate to a total non-event.
BTW totally agree with previous comments regards P.A content, totally advocate the "mushroom treatment" ( keep em in the dark & feed them sh1t) or at any rate something that can't be regurgitated & misconstrued.
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I think these days with passengers and the press all too ready to sensationalize anything to do with aviation, we've got to keep our PAs to the absolute minimum and if in doubt say nothing at all. There's too many irresponsible people out there, ready to drop you in it despite your best intentions.
BTW, hats off to the flight deck for doing the right thing
BTW, hats off to the flight deck for doing the right thing
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Why would a new captain be embarassed because he was restricted like all others until he had 100 hrs or what ever on new equipment. You are either legal or not. If you have 25,000 hrs it doesn't matter. You still need to meet the new captain requirements in type. I had to deal with that situation once and it is no big deal. If you are illegal, go to alternate. It isn't your fault. Just say the airport is below our landing minimums and go to the alternate.
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The truth or not the truth ? that is the question !
Everyone is saying that the captain concerned has himself to blame for the media furore simply because he told the truth to his passengers !
so what are we advocating on pprune ?
That pilots should not inform their passengers on what exactly is going on at the time of an incident or so called non event !
The guy told the truth & has been slaughtered for it !
I for one wouldnt want a liar in the cockpit i don't know about you lot ?
As all of us know the media is so into sensationalising any aviation incident at the moment that if a hosty chipped a nail it would become a major event !
I admire the guy he obviously takes safety very seriously & is obviously very honest
Isnt that what being a proffesional pilot is all about ?
so what are we advocating on pprune ?
That pilots should not inform their passengers on what exactly is going on at the time of an incident or so called non event !
The guy told the truth & has been slaughtered for it !
I for one wouldnt want a liar in the cockpit i don't know about you lot ?
As all of us know the media is so into sensationalising any aviation incident at the moment that if a hosty chipped a nail it would become a major event !
I admire the guy he obviously takes safety very seriously & is obviously very honest
Isnt that what being a proffesional pilot is all about ?
Interestingly enough the company that I worked for before I retired was (and still is) sh*t hot on CAT II qualifications. In fact, I was deeply involved in this programme right at the beginning of the operation since I came from an LVP background.
All (and I mean all) pilots whether captains or F/Os came out of the simulator with a CAT II qualification. As soon as base training was over and line training started, almost the first priority was to do three CAT II approaches in the real aeroplane. Until that was accomplished, the CAT II qualification had not been completed.
Needless to say, until the pilot had completed a CAT II qualification he/she was a bit of an embarrassment to crewing, rostering and operations since this placed a limit on where they could be sent or not sent.
The LVP qualification was renewed every six months in the simulator (some companies only do this every twelve months). This was achieved by conducting an LPC every time a crew came to the sim for a renewal rather than an LPC and an OPC every year. This meant that they were never out of currency.
Did this cost more money? Yes, it probably did but then we were in the business of guaranteeing that your package was delivered and on your desk by 1000 LT in the morning and that was important to us and the customer.
After all, who the hell cares if an aeroplane filled with SLF lands in France or Wales?
All (and I mean all) pilots whether captains or F/Os came out of the simulator with a CAT II qualification. As soon as base training was over and line training started, almost the first priority was to do three CAT II approaches in the real aeroplane. Until that was accomplished, the CAT II qualification had not been completed.
Needless to say, until the pilot had completed a CAT II qualification he/she was a bit of an embarrassment to crewing, rostering and operations since this placed a limit on where they could be sent or not sent.
The LVP qualification was renewed every six months in the simulator (some companies only do this every twelve months). This was achieved by conducting an LPC every time a crew came to the sim for a renewal rather than an LPC and an OPC every year. This meant that they were never out of currency.
Did this cost more money? Yes, it probably did but then we were in the business of guaranteeing that your package was delivered and on your desk by 1000 LT in the morning and that was important to us and the customer.
After all, who the hell cares if an aeroplane filled with SLF lands in France or Wales?
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No they probably didn't. . . . because as has already been stated several times on the thread, the deterioration in the weather was unforecast (and their crystal ball was also U/S that day 
) 
)
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To anyone who is on here who is a passenger:-
Aircraft and crews are all qualified to fly to Cat 1 limits. This is the standard, and what is required. This allows us to fly down to around 550m visibility (ie. not much) and 200 feet above the airfield, IF the airfield has the highest level of instrument approach (ILS), the aids on the ground are fully functional and the aircraft is fully functional (even minor technical problems can cause it not to be, due to the fact that most aircraft have to have back up systems, and back ups to back ups, unlike when driving your car in fog).
If the airfield only has a VOR or NDB approach then the limits are higher.
Airlines can have aircraft that are Cat 2 or Cat 3 able, and then crews that are trained and current to enable them to fly to 75m and zero feet cloud. We don't even know if Paris was Cat 3. It might have been 74m in which case you still couldn't have landed there.
Or the ILS might have been out of service, in which case aircraft and crews must fly to higher limits.
This is called normal operations.
To add to safety, crews do 3 LVP approaches in the simulator (along with around 8 hours of other training) every 6 months.
If the pilots aren't qualified or current to Cat 3b (75m visibility) then they fly to Cat 1 (550m visibility, or more, depending on the airport).
This doesn't meant they are any less qualified, any less skillful, or any better or worse than any other pilot. It just means they haven't got the currency or qualification to reduce the minima.
Its a bit like saying that it isn't safe to drive a car with an 1100cc engine because there might be a time you need really fast acceleration in order to overtake someone.
To the pilots on here:-
I think I might just lie on PAs from now on!!! I know we are encouraged to be truthful but when we tell the truth passengers just make up their own, more exciting, stories.
Pprune used to be so much better when only pilots knew of this site don't ya think? Real discussions could take place, that were useful.
I've twice diverted in the Canaries, once for technical/ operational reasons and once for weather. On both occasions when we could finally operate the return sector, the number of unbelievable stories the passengers had come up with as the reasons we didn't do xyz was incredible. The best ones were a) we were rubbish pilots because another plane had got in (yeah, earlier and under VERY suspect weather conditions)
and
b) we diverted to Tenerife because we were rubbish pilots and couldn't land on the shorter runway at Lanzarote (yeah, partly right, with some of our hydraulics out and with no way of getting spares to Lanzarote on a Friday (this was on a Thursday), we took the decision to go to TFS - perhaps an "ace" would have gone to ACE and shown his skills off. Or crashed. One or the other....). Perhaps we should have gone to ACE and waited a few days for an aircraft to bring engineers and spares?
I hasten to add that in both cases we informed the passengers of the true reasons.
Is it time to start a separate forum for REAL professional pilots???? Surely this could be moderated by allowing anyone in who has registered and been clarified in the private airline specific forums?
Aircraft and crews are all qualified to fly to Cat 1 limits. This is the standard, and what is required. This allows us to fly down to around 550m visibility (ie. not much) and 200 feet above the airfield, IF the airfield has the highest level of instrument approach (ILS), the aids on the ground are fully functional and the aircraft is fully functional (even minor technical problems can cause it not to be, due to the fact that most aircraft have to have back up systems, and back ups to back ups, unlike when driving your car in fog).
If the airfield only has a VOR or NDB approach then the limits are higher.
Airlines can have aircraft that are Cat 2 or Cat 3 able, and then crews that are trained and current to enable them to fly to 75m and zero feet cloud. We don't even know if Paris was Cat 3. It might have been 74m in which case you still couldn't have landed there.
Or the ILS might have been out of service, in which case aircraft and crews must fly to higher limits.
This is called normal operations.
To add to safety, crews do 3 LVP approaches in the simulator (along with around 8 hours of other training) every 6 months.
If the pilots aren't qualified or current to Cat 3b (75m visibility) then they fly to Cat 1 (550m visibility, or more, depending on the airport).
This doesn't meant they are any less qualified, any less skillful, or any better or worse than any other pilot. It just means they haven't got the currency or qualification to reduce the minima.
Its a bit like saying that it isn't safe to drive a car with an 1100cc engine because there might be a time you need really fast acceleration in order to overtake someone.
To the pilots on here:-
I think I might just lie on PAs from now on!!! I know we are encouraged to be truthful but when we tell the truth passengers just make up their own, more exciting, stories.
Pprune used to be so much better when only pilots knew of this site don't ya think? Real discussions could take place, that were useful.
I've twice diverted in the Canaries, once for technical/ operational reasons and once for weather. On both occasions when we could finally operate the return sector, the number of unbelievable stories the passengers had come up with as the reasons we didn't do xyz was incredible. The best ones were a) we were rubbish pilots because another plane had got in (yeah, earlier and under VERY suspect weather conditions)
and
b) we diverted to Tenerife because we were rubbish pilots and couldn't land on the shorter runway at Lanzarote (yeah, partly right, with some of our hydraulics out and with no way of getting spares to Lanzarote on a Friday (this was on a Thursday), we took the decision to go to TFS - perhaps an "ace" would have gone to ACE and shown his skills off. Or crashed. One or the other....). Perhaps we should have gone to ACE and waited a few days for an aircraft to bring engineers and spares?
I hasten to add that in both cases we informed the passengers of the true reasons.
Is it time to start a separate forum for REAL professional pilots???? Surely this could be moderated by allowing anyone in who has registered and been clarified in the private airline specific forums?
PPRuNe used to be so much better when only pilots knew of this site don't ya think? Real discussions could take place, that were useful.
Might I suggest the problem might have started when the site required registering in order to view.
Perhaps plenty of folks read with interest before that but having had to register just to read then felt tempted to post.
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My, is it that time already? We've not had the pilots only thread drift since...................oooh, the last one.
Those wishing to continue the discussion are free to head over to Jet Blast and kick off there (though I'm not sure how the mods there will feel about it).
All those wishing to continue this topic should stay.
Duck
Those wishing to continue the discussion are free to head over to Jet Blast and kick off there (though I'm not sure how the mods there will feel about it).
All those wishing to continue this topic should stay.
Duck