Flybe BQ400 captain's red face!
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Seems to me that the pilot did the right thing and the company did the wrong thing.
No matter how much the company might try to portray it as "one of those things", to allow a commercial aircraft to be sent to a destination without a fully qualified crew for all conditions surely has to be questionable and leaves them open to ridicule.
No matter how much the company might try to portray it as "one of those things", to allow a commercial aircraft to be sent to a destination without a fully qualified crew for all conditions surely has to be questionable and leaves them open to ridicule.
Was once critcised by a pax. for diverting from LHR to MAN because of low ceiling and vis. in fog, he - quote " ... was a private pilot and could land in fog, so what was wrong with me ?... "
As I disembarked at MAN I learned that Graham Hill, the racing driver, had just crashed and killed himself and his passengers, in fog at his own airstrip. I wish I could have told that passenger that news.
Another pax. on the same flight - from New York - asked why I hadn't told them earlier that it was foggy in London, I asked him what he would have done if I had told them - got off ? ( no cellphones or satellite comms.in those days, ATC HF the only link ) his wife sniggered behind her magazine.
Better on freighters.
As I disembarked at MAN I learned that Graham Hill, the racing driver, had just crashed and killed himself and his passengers, in fog at his own airstrip. I wish I could have told that passenger that news.
Another pax. on the same flight - from New York - asked why I hadn't told them earlier that it was foggy in London, I asked him what he would have done if I had told them - got off ? ( no cellphones or satellite comms.in those days, ATC HF the only link ) his wife sniggered behind her magazine.
Better on freighters.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 19th Dec 2008 at 22:01. Reason: IATA code for MAN
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parabellum
To avoid confusion may I just point out that any minima below the normal ILS minima will involve low visibility procedures, whether they are cat2, 3, 3a or 3b. As already stated LVP's require further training beyond the normal instrument rating training. Therefore a fully rated pilot, fully qualified to fly the aircraft, will still need further training to fly LVP's.
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There are any number of reasons why a crew might not be low vis qualified, few of which involve the airline being 'negligent' or 'commercially unwise'. In fact, quite the reverse.
Those that know, know.
As for the rest of you, I recommend smearing yourself in whale blubber and swimming the Channel instead.
pb
Those that know, know.
As for the rest of you, I recommend smearing yourself in whale blubber and swimming the Channel instead.
pb
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Seems to me that the pilot did the right thing and the company did the wrong thing
Pilot unquestionably takes right decision (and in fact would have been rightly sluaghtered by management if he'd done anything else) but chooses wrong words and put the wind up passengers. Bad news sells and one or more of them gets on the blower to Phil Space at the Crapola Gazette.
Phil phones the airline who are faced with a quandry. They can't lie (journos are nasty sorts who always catch you out), so they agree a statement that a) bigs up the Captain's record of 30 years experience b) Says safety wasn't compromised c) Paints a factual picture of his type-rating change. I'm guessing the statement was agreed with top brass within the management and they rightly thought they were doing the correct thing.
What would you have done, strake? Told the journalist that he was making a fuss over nothing and send him away with a flea in his ear? Tell him that there are lots of pilots similarly 'unqualified' flying throughout the industry? Get real.
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As only SLF, but one who frequently travels to small islands with the inevitable weather challenges I can only agree that the guys up front made the correct decision.
As for going to court ...WHY? what does it prove? A small personal financial gain (if successful) a lot of time wasted, and the only real winner is the lawyer.
At this time of year disruption is almost inevitable at some part of my journey, I try to leave enough time in my schedule to get a later flight still make my appointment/ connection, I get to the airport with plenty of time to spare and a good book. Most things can be controlled but not the weather, and forecasting is just that - a forecast - a prediction, not a statement of fact.
Go back to Cardiff? Yes the sensible thing commercially - less disruption to schedules and pax on familiar territiory.
Gents please be careful for the next few weeks, the press are on the lookout for copy..Parliament in recess, the US election is over, child welfare done to exhaustion, pop star divorces a bit quiet....Watch what you say and do......
. In the trade it is known as 'silly season'. Don't be a part of it
As for going to court ...WHY? what does it prove? A small personal financial gain (if successful) a lot of time wasted, and the only real winner is the lawyer.
At this time of year disruption is almost inevitable at some part of my journey, I try to leave enough time in my schedule to get a later flight still make my appointment/ connection, I get to the airport with plenty of time to spare and a good book. Most things can be controlled but not the weather, and forecasting is just that - a forecast - a prediction, not a statement of fact.
Go back to Cardiff? Yes the sensible thing commercially - less disruption to schedules and pax on familiar territiory.
Gents please be careful for the next few weeks, the press are on the lookout for copy..Parliament in recess, the US election is over, child welfare done to exhaustion, pop star divorces a bit quiet....Watch what you say and do......
. In the trade it is known as 'silly season'. Don't be a part of it Join Date: Jan 2001
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No matter how much the company might try to portray it as "one of those things", to allow a commercial aircraft to be sent to a destination without a fully qualified crew for all conditions surely has to be questionable
If to be "fully qualified" you have to fly a certain number of sectors / hours on type / in role, how can you become "fully qualified" (whatever that means) whenever you fly for the airline NoD
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I think that the Captain, made a safe and informed decision.
I perhaps would have asked if it was possible to have a First officer on board who had the relevant qualification, should the situation arise where the weather deteriorated.
However, failing that, given the circumstances, he made the right decision.
But as it has already been mentioned, his announcement was very naive, although honest. He should have told a white-lie, to keep passengers calm and avoid any embarrassment.
I perhaps would have asked if it was possible to have a First officer on board who had the relevant qualification, should the situation arise where the weather deteriorated.
However, failing that, given the circumstances, he made the right decision.
But as it has already been mentioned, his announcement was very naive, although honest. He should have told a white-lie, to keep passengers calm and avoid any embarrassment.
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I wouldn't be so harsh as to say he chose the wrong words, just that there were too many honest and factual words there.
To all passengers.......this is why you hear statements like,
a) Due to operational reasons,
b) Due to a technical problem,
c) Due to adverse weather
Of course it's frustrating when you are not given the full details etc.....most pilots would prefer to be honest and factual.......they just can't.
To all passengers.......this is why you hear statements like,
a) Due to operational reasons,
b) Due to a technical problem,
c) Due to adverse weather
Of course it's frustrating when you are not given the full details etc.....most pilots would prefer to be honest and factual.......they just can't.
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I perhaps would have asked if it was possible to have a First officer on board who had the relevant qualification, should the situation arise where the weather deteriorated.
NoD
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From my own experience (CATIIIb) You do require BOTH crew to be Lo-Vis qualified, infact it is the first statement on our CATII/III briefing aide-memoire.
In this example even if the Captain was CATII certified, if the first officer isn't, how can a safe (or legal?) CATII approach be flown? During a CATIII approach, the F/O is the handling pilot down to DH where the captain (who has been looking for the required visual cues) will make a decision; LAND or GO AROUND, if the decision is LAND the captain will take the controls and monitor the flare and rollout (F/O mointoring too of course
)
If the decision is GO AROUND, the F/O will fly the missed approach procedure.
Our CATII ops are as described, only difference being the DH and RVR, the DH affecting the choice of a CATII Autoland or CATII Manland (DH100 or below a CATII autoland may be flown)
And yes as I'm sure many people are aware, if your A/C has CATIIIb available, a CATII autoland does exist (the aircraft will still annunciate CATIII Autoland, another requirement of performing a CATII Autoland)
Not sure of flybe procedures, but I'd bet money it'll be monitored approach during LVPs, hence required BOTH crew to have completed the Low Vis training.
Atreyu
In this example even if the Captain was CATII certified, if the first officer isn't, how can a safe (or legal?) CATII approach be flown? During a CATIII approach, the F/O is the handling pilot down to DH where the captain (who has been looking for the required visual cues) will make a decision; LAND or GO AROUND, if the decision is LAND the captain will take the controls and monitor the flare and rollout (F/O mointoring too of course
)If the decision is GO AROUND, the F/O will fly the missed approach procedure.
Our CATII ops are as described, only difference being the DH and RVR, the DH affecting the choice of a CATII Autoland or CATII Manland (DH100 or below a CATII autoland may be flown)
And yes as I'm sure many people are aware, if your A/C has CATIIIb available, a CATII autoland does exist (the aircraft will still annunciate CATIII Autoland, another requirement of performing a CATII Autoland)
Not sure of flybe procedures, but I'd bet money it'll be monitored approach during LVPs, hence required BOTH crew to have completed the Low Vis training.
Atreyu
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Seems to me that the pilot did the right thing and the company did the wrong thing.
No matter how much the company might try to portray it as "one of those things", to allow a commercial aircraft to be sent to a destination without a fully qualified crew for all conditions surely has to be questionable and leaves them open to ridicule.
No matter how much the company might try to portray it as "one of those things", to allow a commercial aircraft to be sent to a destination without a fully qualified crew for all conditions surely has to be questionable and leaves them open to ridicule.
Seems to me that the Professional Pilots (i.e. the only ones who actually understand low-vis operations, and who seem to be a minority here these days) agree that this was a total, complete and utter non-event. The only ones who think it newsworthy are either journalists fishing for a story, litigious businessmen or PPLs who really should know better.
davidbrent,
Both the Captain and First Officer must both be CAT II qualified and current to fly a CAT II approach so unfortunately even if the FO is qualified does nothing to help the situation.
All,
Reading some of the news articles on this subject there are a few strange quotes floating about including this one:
"'They are asking for a level two qualification and I only have a level five. We'll have to fly back.'"
Perhaps a timely reminder that what you say over the PA isn't always what the passengers hear and take away with them. While I wouldn't want to have to read from a script every time I use the PA, perhaps using the KISS approach is the way forward.
I'm trying to work out how this has generated 4 pages of posts, is everyone as bored as I am?
Both the Captain and First Officer must both be CAT II qualified and current to fly a CAT II approach so unfortunately even if the FO is qualified does nothing to help the situation.
All,
Reading some of the news articles on this subject there are a few strange quotes floating about including this one:
"'They are asking for a level two qualification and I only have a level five. We'll have to fly back.'"
Perhaps a timely reminder that what you say over the PA isn't always what the passengers hear and take away with them. While I wouldn't want to have to read from a script every time I use the PA, perhaps using the KISS approach is the way forward.
I'm trying to work out how this has generated 4 pages of posts, is everyone as bored as I am?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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We definitely misunderstood each other Flaps5! I thought you were saying that a Cat2 approach could not be flown below the auto-pilot disconnect height stipulated by the company/manufacturer, which isn't the case. Well aware of additional training required for LVP, done a lot of it! Cheers.
Trappist - post 70
What, or where, is Orval, and should I care ?
So I got it wrong, big deal, were you or your very smart friends in any doubt as to where I diverted to, having first flown from New York ( Kennedy ) to London ( Heathrow )?
And MAN or MCR or LHR or EGCC or MGMM or EGLL or NYC or KJFK wasn't the point anyway - or did that escape you ?
Goodnight.
Later ......... just Googled orval ........
" This site presents the adventures of Orval the pig as he wrestles with the issues of the day in Arkansas and nationwide. Orval Comics is published weekly "
Got it, thanks, my education is enhanced.
What, or where, is Orval, and should I care ?
So I got it wrong, big deal, were you or your very smart friends in any doubt as to where I diverted to, having first flown from New York ( Kennedy ) to London ( Heathrow )?
And MAN or MCR or LHR or EGCC or MGMM or EGLL or NYC or KJFK wasn't the point anyway - or did that escape you ?
Goodnight.
Later ......... just Googled orval ........
" This site presents the adventures of Orval the pig as he wrestles with the issues of the day in Arkansas and nationwide. Orval Comics is published weekly "
Got it, thanks, my education is enhanced.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 19th Dec 2008 at 23:41.
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Re post #83
Dear, oh dear…touchy, touchy…
Not surprising that you also got that wrong…
Must have had to go pretty low to find that snippet?
Near the top of the list is: Orval Brewery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To help you in your septuagenarian state:
"Abbaye, célèbre pour sa bière et ses fromages, située dans le sud du Luxembourg. Villers-devant-Orval, Wallonie, Belgique."
Maybe this is easier?
Orval Brewery (Brasserie d'Orval) is a Belgian Trappist brewery located within the walls of the Abbaye Notre-Dame d'Orval monastery in the Gaume region of Belgium.
Dear, oh dear…touchy, touchy…
Not surprising that you also got that wrong…
Must have had to go pretty low to find that snippet?
Near the top of the list is: Orval Brewery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To help you in your septuagenarian state:
"Abbaye, célèbre pour sa bière et ses fromages, située dans le sud du Luxembourg. Villers-devant-Orval, Wallonie, Belgique."
Maybe this is easier?
Orval Brewery (Brasserie d'Orval) is a Belgian Trappist brewery located within the walls of the Abbaye Notre-Dame d'Orval monastery in the Gaume region of Belgium.
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Not sure of this has already been said, but I live and work near Southampton and can say 100% that on Tuesday morning you'd have needed pilots with x-ray vision to fly in or out of that airport, so the diversion to Cardiff instead really was a no brainer 
I'm guessing that the people (Or person) who is saying they would have been annoyed at the diversion are the same people driving along the M27 with all their lights off in 0 visibility that day 
Also, as is what happens 99% of the time here, most people have missed the point of the OP... he made a PA that passengers and the press have sensationalised and thus may regret the wording.
I'm guessing that the people (Or person) who is saying they would have been annoyed at the diversion are the same people driving along the M27 with all their lights off in 0 visibility that day Also, as is what happens 99% of the time here, most people have missed the point of the OP... he made a PA that passengers and the press have sensationalised and thus may regret the wording.
Last edited by Xorthis; 20th Dec 2008 at 08:37.