British Airways US Freighters
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Somehow nobody replied to cargorats posting about ATLAs AIR CREW SERVICES in STN. But it contains the answer to all questions about outsourcing to US ACMI operators. It also explains why German pilots and not ATLAS crews are flying for SK. The reason is simple. ATLAS is too expensive. Actually, most US ACMI operators are too expensive. With the Euro loosing value day by day, and US pilot salaries at very high levels, a Polar B744 captain makes much more than the same guy at Lufthansa.
On the contrary, US ALPA is concerned about loosing jobs too Europeans, because we are the cheap guys now.
On the contrary, US ALPA is concerned about loosing jobs too Europeans, because we are the cheap guys now.
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>>With the Euro loosing value day by day, and US pilot salaries at very high levels, a Polar B744 captain makes much more than the same guy at Lufthansa.<<
I don't know about Polar but the Atlas guys don't make very much by U.S. standards. I ran into an Atlas 747-200 captain recently who said he expected to make about $62,000 this year. A wide-body F/O at United or Delta would make a great deal more than this. Somebody may be getting the money but it's not the crews at Atlas.
I don't know about Polar but the Atlas guys don't make very much by U.S. standards. I ran into an Atlas 747-200 captain recently who said he expected to make about $62,000 this year. A wide-body F/O at United or Delta would make a great deal more than this. Somebody may be getting the money but it's not the crews at Atlas.
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No, cargo rat, I don't think either I or the IPA are "being selfish". There is no question of having to stick freight on a truck. Several UK airlines -four of whom lodged official objections, operate large freight aircraft -including B747 (I agree not yet the 400). They will be delighted to have a chance to compete for this business.
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Interesting enough what has been overlooked in this thread is the contempt of Atlas Air management towards it's pilot group.
Having recently entered contract negotiations with ALPA, Atlas Air management has sprung upon the pilot group a depolrable ultimatum by establishing an International base in Stansted, England with a closing bid date if May 10th. If sufficient numbers of the pilot group do not bid this assignment Atlas Air crew leasing reserves the right to hire outside. This tactic can only be described as union busting. Atlas pilots do not want this base and we hope that our brothers overseas will not bid for these slots which will only undermine our efforts to secure a respectable wage from a company that has no regard for it's employees.
Having recently entered contract negotiations with ALPA, Atlas Air management has sprung upon the pilot group a depolrable ultimatum by establishing an International base in Stansted, England with a closing bid date if May 10th. If sufficient numbers of the pilot group do not bid this assignment Atlas Air crew leasing reserves the right to hire outside. This tactic can only be described as union busting. Atlas pilots do not want this base and we hope that our brothers overseas will not bid for these slots which will only undermine our efforts to secure a respectable wage from a company that has no regard for it's employees.
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I am not that close to the fire, but ATLAS crews have told me that morale is low right now. Since they got their ALPA contract, all profit sharing was stopped. Also note, that all aircraft are registered N747MC, which stands for Mike Chowdry. They are not owned by ATLAS, but by MCs Leasing company. -400 captains I met are getting ready to leave for overseas jobs (Asia).
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As one who is "close to the fire," I can tell you that morale at Atlas is low. Some are looking at employment elsewhere, but the majority are comitted to gaining a fair and equitable contract and making this a good place to work.
As of yet, there is no labor contract at Atlas and thus we are all still "at will" employees.
Management appear to be hostile to labor and we are being chisled on a daily basis with degradations in hotels and catering as examples. Often forced to fly beyond scheduled days or face termination. Rarely do you fly the schedule you were awarded in monthly bid. Needs of the company you know. Quit if you don't like it.
For 19 days per month of duty, our average captain is earning $80,0000 with FO's and FE's making perhaps 2/3 that amount if past the first year. Of course, we have pilots make much and and much less. The frustrating thing is that you may spend several days at a stretch in a hotel somewhere making only per diem and many months it is difficult to overfly the 60 hour guarantee. You are gone for entire 18 or 19 days per month (supposed to have 12 days off per month) whether you are productive or not.
Anyone considering the Atlas Aircrew Services scheme need to have their eyes wide open. You will be "used" to the maximum extent possible and paid for as few hours as possible. Watch out for the contract, you will not be free to leave as the Atlas pilots are. If you thought slavery wasn't alive and well in the civlized world, think again. This operation is preying on older pilots who just want an aircraft to fly and will be grateful at that. This is not a career move! Their management will be singing in tune with MC and have no regard for you in least.
Atlas Aircrew Services as union buster? I don't think it is neccessarily so. But it will not be a pleasant place to work even if it allows MC to keep the BA contract. If you should go to work for AAS, rest assured their will be no contempt from the Atlas pilot group, unless of course you left Atlas US and think you are coming back on our seniority list.
As of yet, there is no labor contract at Atlas and thus we are all still "at will" employees.
Management appear to be hostile to labor and we are being chisled on a daily basis with degradations in hotels and catering as examples. Often forced to fly beyond scheduled days or face termination. Rarely do you fly the schedule you were awarded in monthly bid. Needs of the company you know. Quit if you don't like it.
For 19 days per month of duty, our average captain is earning $80,0000 with FO's and FE's making perhaps 2/3 that amount if past the first year. Of course, we have pilots make much and and much less. The frustrating thing is that you may spend several days at a stretch in a hotel somewhere making only per diem and many months it is difficult to overfly the 60 hour guarantee. You are gone for entire 18 or 19 days per month (supposed to have 12 days off per month) whether you are productive or not.
Anyone considering the Atlas Aircrew Services scheme need to have their eyes wide open. You will be "used" to the maximum extent possible and paid for as few hours as possible. Watch out for the contract, you will not be free to leave as the Atlas pilots are. If you thought slavery wasn't alive and well in the civlized world, think again. This operation is preying on older pilots who just want an aircraft to fly and will be grateful at that. This is not a career move! Their management will be singing in tune with MC and have no regard for you in least.
Atlas Aircrew Services as union buster? I don't think it is neccessarily so. But it will not be a pleasant place to work even if it allows MC to keep the BA contract. If you should go to work for AAS, rest assured their will be no contempt from the Atlas pilot group, unless of course you left Atlas US and think you are coming back on our seniority list.
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This move to the UK ( hence Europe) by an FAA carrier is a very serious development. Airlines that must abide by the JAA cannot compete on a level playing field with the FAA operated airlines. European aircrew should also be aware that the last few decades of gains made concerning duty time will be thrown out with the FAA (flag and Supplemental) regulations being much longer.
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BA would have a problem operating freighters in the current market-place, primarily because BALPA would want BA to pay the standard BA 747-400 salary. This would make them uncompetitive. Lufthansa split off their cargo operation and pay less than the standard Lufthansa salary. Cargolux, the other big long-haul cargo player in Europe, pay considerably less than BA. (Although a lot more than Atlas, it would appear). Air France don't count, since they still drink from the taxpayers' bottomless pit.
I would be interested to know BALPA's view on the idea of BA having a separate cargo operation, paying competitive rates. Would they prefer an American low cost carrier using American crews to carry BA's freight, or would a BA cargo operation paying representative salaries be acceptable to them.
I would be interested to know BALPA's view on the idea of BA having a separate cargo operation, paying competitive rates. Would they prefer an American low cost carrier using American crews to carry BA's freight, or would a BA cargo operation paying representative salaries be acceptable to them.
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It's all about big business folks!
Atlas is in jeopardy of losing the BA contract if they don't hire locals period. And atlas is one squirrel that doesn't want to let that nut go!
They are counting on retired BA Capt.'s to fill the required slots. One would naturally think that a retired BA Capt. on pension would not consider working under the terms of the proposed contract but Atlas thinks differently. They figure theses guys are dead in the water anyway and will take whatever they can get. I would be interested in hearing from any of these gentleman on this matter.
Atlas is in jeopardy of losing the BA contract if they don't hire locals period. And atlas is one squirrel that doesn't want to let that nut go!
They are counting on retired BA Capt.'s to fill the required slots. One would naturally think that a retired BA Capt. on pension would not consider working under the terms of the proposed contract but Atlas thinks differently. They figure theses guys are dead in the water anyway and will take whatever they can get. I would be interested in hearing from any of these gentleman on this matter.
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My two pennies worth again, Shot One. I can't help feeling that many are missing the point...BA doesn't have any freighters. Ok so they could procure some; even if they did, look at the scenarios;
-get hold of some 2nd hand ones. LH have a whole bunch of mothballed 747-200F. All replaced with new MD11F. I believe LH parked them because they were no longer profitable to operate (fuel consumption & spiralling maintenance costs).
-buy new ones. let's say half a dozen to start with. Cost no object. Order them today; delivery...12 months? So, 12 months later, they're sitting on the ramp waiting to be filled. How do you fill them without an established reputation (BA's pax reputation doesn't count), and an established market (need a reputation for that). Catch22.
The likes of Atlas enable a carrier to: establish themselves/increase market share/try new destinations without a vast capital outlay.
And I still maintain that the MAJORITY of UK cargo is trucked out of the UK, to fly on scheduled freight carriers from within the EU, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
UK's loss, our gain.Thank you very much for your business.
And before everyone starts shouting about established UK freight carriers (lets say AFX & Channel Express), 1 -200F and a couple of A300s are not going to satisfy the market.
I repeat that I'm not "pro-Atlas"; I don't even work for them. They do, however, have their uses.
My humble opinions.
rgds Rat
-get hold of some 2nd hand ones. LH have a whole bunch of mothballed 747-200F. All replaced with new MD11F. I believe LH parked them because they were no longer profitable to operate (fuel consumption & spiralling maintenance costs).
-buy new ones. let's say half a dozen to start with. Cost no object. Order them today; delivery...12 months? So, 12 months later, they're sitting on the ramp waiting to be filled. How do you fill them without an established reputation (BA's pax reputation doesn't count), and an established market (need a reputation for that). Catch22.
The likes of Atlas enable a carrier to: establish themselves/increase market share/try new destinations without a vast capital outlay.
And I still maintain that the MAJORITY of UK cargo is trucked out of the UK, to fly on scheduled freight carriers from within the EU, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
UK's loss, our gain.Thank you very much for your business.
And before everyone starts shouting about established UK freight carriers (lets say AFX & Channel Express), 1 -200F and a couple of A300s are not going to satisfy the market.
I repeat that I'm not "pro-Atlas"; I don't even work for them. They do, however, have their uses.
My humble opinions.
rgds Rat
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Read in press that Atlas are considering more than just setting up crewing organisation, but are looking to purchase a major (majority?) share in a Euro AOC...with same goal to protect established European business.....??
Regarding pros & cons of ACMI operators, the other advantage that lessors find is that real freighter costs become clear. Waters are not "muddied" by shared overheads with pax business. Lessors then have more confidence about profitability (or not) of cargo ops.
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Hi Zones again,
Ref yr last post: yes!.
May all the rest in the UK continue with their short-sighted opinions!!!
Thanks very much - it helps MY profit sharing...HiHiHi all the way to the bank!
Please keep sending that freight over to the euro mainland...
The Rat is an Englishman who gave up on Blighty long long ago (1974 to be exact)...
Ref yr last post: yes!.
May all the rest in the UK continue with their short-sighted opinions!!!
Thanks very much - it helps MY profit sharing...HiHiHi all the way to the bank!
Please keep sending that freight over to the euro mainland...
The Rat is an Englishman who gave up on Blighty long long ago (1974 to be exact)...
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RE Atlas -200's getting glass cockpits: True that Atlas have been seriously exploring and may have a contract pending to redo all but the oldest aircraft. THE FLIGHT ENGINEER REMAINS! They are planning to replace pilot's instruments with CRT's. Penny and Giles engine instrumentation is already in the works and change is in our flight manuals. Add dual FMC's as well.
My guess is that it would be cheaper to buy a new -400 than modify a -200 to be certified with a two man cockpit.
My guess is that it would be cheaper to buy a new -400 than modify a -200 to be certified with a two man cockpit.