Vietnam Airlines slashes Expat salaries
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So what do we do?
Yes we know VNA Mgt wants to cut pay.
Yes the various facts are stated and have been argued.
For the Expats, what do we do about it?
Ultimate decision stands with ourselves.
To stay and take the paycut or to leave.
But before it comes to that, what can we do about it to help influence the decison.
Any ideas?
Yes the various facts are stated and have been argued.
For the Expats, what do we do about it?
Ultimate decision stands with ourselves.
To stay and take the paycut or to leave.
But before it comes to that, what can we do about it to help influence the decison.
Any ideas?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Where do you think the work force will move?
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Can anybody tell me what the salaries in that part of the world are anyway? Looks like Ill run out of money in a few months and here in the USA jobs are not really out there.
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Can anybody tell me what the salaries in that part of the world are anyway? Looks like Ill run out of money in a few months and here in the USA jobs are not really out there.
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Jesus.Christ.VN
>>Ultimate decision stands with ourselves.
To stay and take the paycut or to leave.
But before it comes to that, what can we do about it to help influence the decison.
Any ideas?<<
Yes, you are right, there should be any reaction. But I am not sure if any expat pilots is able to influence the decisions of the management of VAC. They won't be amused to invite any of the expats to a nice tea and biscuit and ask for a common solution.
Or is anyone such a good friend to the upper ones??? Then he should try and make them aware of the risks they are running into.
Maybe it all rests with the agencies. They are the only ones who have any power. We work for them, so as soon as they say "stay home and do not go to work, because there are certain problems arising with VAC", it would be the only move which might have any influence on VAC. I once experienced this way of "trouble shooting" with a former agency I worked for.
To stay and take the paycut or to leave.
But before it comes to that, what can we do about it to help influence the decison.
Any ideas?<<
Yes, you are right, there should be any reaction. But I am not sure if any expat pilots is able to influence the decisions of the management of VAC. They won't be amused to invite any of the expats to a nice tea and biscuit and ask for a common solution.
Or is anyone such a good friend to the upper ones??? Then he should try and make them aware of the risks they are running into.
Maybe it all rests with the agencies. They are the only ones who have any power. We work for them, so as soon as they say "stay home and do not go to work, because there are certain problems arising with VAC", it would be the only move which might have any influence on VAC. I once experienced this way of "trouble shooting" with a former agency I worked for.
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What we could do to help the decision:
Dear all,
now all of you pilots under threat of getting a paycut pay attention.
What we can do:
1. Get all our friends who are considering the agencies to retract their applications. Tell them the truth about higher cost of living and the impact of reducing our pay.
2. Contact whoever we can on the Vietnamese Govt, Embassy, VNA mgt etc to ask them to do something about it. Spread the word. It is as much a political game as any. If you have influence with any PRESS get them to write about this.
3. Pledge never to support the individual who proposed this in his or her endeavour to rise in the ranks of the airline. If there is another upcoming Vietnamese leader, support him. Enemy of my enemy is my friend.
4. Keep finding stuff to fault his decision and by George Publish it.
5. Operations is not the only cost centre many other departments are the true cause of losing money.
-Less passengers actually means marketing has failed.
-Fuel price hike means purchasing has failed to hedge the prices when it was low. ie no insight.
-I dont need to say how pilferage affects the company.
GIVE THEM REASON TO PUNISH OTHER DEPARTMENTS NOT THE PILOTS.
Not all involved can afford to lose their jobs, so we all need to be understanding and WORK TOGETHER on this.
We should start doing this as soon as possible.
IN GOD WE TRUST
now all of you pilots under threat of getting a paycut pay attention.
What we can do:
1. Get all our friends who are considering the agencies to retract their applications. Tell them the truth about higher cost of living and the impact of reducing our pay.
2. Contact whoever we can on the Vietnamese Govt, Embassy, VNA mgt etc to ask them to do something about it. Spread the word. It is as much a political game as any. If you have influence with any PRESS get them to write about this.
3. Pledge never to support the individual who proposed this in his or her endeavour to rise in the ranks of the airline. If there is another upcoming Vietnamese leader, support him. Enemy of my enemy is my friend.
4. Keep finding stuff to fault his decision and by George Publish it.
5. Operations is not the only cost centre many other departments are the true cause of losing money.
-Less passengers actually means marketing has failed.
-Fuel price hike means purchasing has failed to hedge the prices when it was low. ie no insight.
-I dont need to say how pilferage affects the company.
GIVE THEM REASON TO PUNISH OTHER DEPARTMENTS NOT THE PILOTS.
Not all involved can afford to lose their jobs, so we all need to be understanding and WORK TOGETHER on this.
We should start doing this as soon as possible.
IN GOD WE TRUST
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Pay issue is not between pilot and VNA... It's between the pilot and contracting agency(ies). The crews receive payment in accordance with their contracts. Its up to the contracting agencies to come up with alternative actions the crews can avail themselves.
Consultation with an international labor/contract attorney may be recommended before acting out of anger.
Consultation with an international labor/contract attorney may be recommended before acting out of anger.
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April 17, 2000
The Defector
By DAVID LIEBHOLD
Early in the morning of April 8, 1975, while most Saigonese were on their way to work, a South Vietnamese pilot named Nguyen Thanh Trung stole an American F-5 fighter plane and dropped two bombs through the roof of the Presidential Palace. It was the most spectacular defection of the war and a harbinger of the North Vietnamese victory three weeks later. "It was a major nail in the coffin, psychologically," recalls Gil J. Watts, a former G.I. who was running a business in the city at the time.
The bombing gained Trung a place of honor in the newly unified communist state--and a successful career. Today, at 52, he is the chief pilot for Vietnam Airlines, flying a Boeing 767 on international routes. Trung claims he planned the bombing for 12 years, to avenge the death and desecration of his father, a Viet Cong member, at the hands of the South Vietnamese army. In May 1969, he had secretly joined the Viet Cong--just a day before enlisting in South Vietnam's air force.
Sneaking away with the F-5 was not easy, since even the smallest sorties involved three jets. "After we had been cleared for takeoff, I gave the leader the signal for electrical trouble," says Trung, pouring tea in the sitting room of his modest home in Ho Chi Minh City. "He signaled back that I should stay behind." When the other two aircraft had taken off, Trung waited 10 seconds and then departed himself. He headed for downtown Saigon and destroyed the center of the palace. (President Nguyen Van Thieu escaped unhurt.)
Mission accomplished, Trung flew north and landed the plane at a Viet Cong-controlled airstrip in Phuc Long province, near the Cambodian border. He was taken by jeep into the jungle, where he changed into a Viet Cong uniform. Two days later he was made a captain and presented with a radio. "I don't feel very proud about my role in the war," says Trung. "I just did the correct thing to end the war and the killing as quickly as possible."
With reporting by Ken Stier/Ho Chi Minh City
The Defector
By DAVID LIEBHOLD
Early in the morning of April 8, 1975, while most Saigonese were on their way to work, a South Vietnamese pilot named Nguyen Thanh Trung stole an American F-5 fighter plane and dropped two bombs through the roof of the Presidential Palace. It was the most spectacular defection of the war and a harbinger of the North Vietnamese victory three weeks later. "It was a major nail in the coffin, psychologically," recalls Gil J. Watts, a former G.I. who was running a business in the city at the time.
The bombing gained Trung a place of honor in the newly unified communist state--and a successful career. Today, at 52, he is the chief pilot for Vietnam Airlines, flying a Boeing 767 on international routes. Trung claims he planned the bombing for 12 years, to avenge the death and desecration of his father, a Viet Cong member, at the hands of the South Vietnamese army. In May 1969, he had secretly joined the Viet Cong--just a day before enlisting in South Vietnam's air force.
Sneaking away with the F-5 was not easy, since even the smallest sorties involved three jets. "After we had been cleared for takeoff, I gave the leader the signal for electrical trouble," says Trung, pouring tea in the sitting room of his modest home in Ho Chi Minh City. "He signaled back that I should stay behind." When the other two aircraft had taken off, Trung waited 10 seconds and then departed himself. He headed for downtown Saigon and destroyed the center of the palace. (President Nguyen Van Thieu escaped unhurt.)
Mission accomplished, Trung flew north and landed the plane at a Viet Cong-controlled airstrip in Phuc Long province, near the Cambodian border. He was taken by jeep into the jungle, where he changed into a Viet Cong uniform. Two days later he was made a captain and presented with a radio. "I don't feel very proud about my role in the war," says Trung. "I just did the correct thing to end the war and the killing as quickly as possible."
With reporting by Ken Stier/Ho Chi Minh City
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Great story... but not the show stopper to ended the war... ops not really a war but conflict... oops Robert McNamara's ego trip that cost numerous American lives... and for what??? But wait there's more... the Nixon administration along with an ego-maniacal putz by the name of Hank Kissenger who was more interested in their achievements rather than the additional loss of lives.
Last edited by captjns; 6th Nov 2008 at 18:01.
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Well... I think it was good old GOP Ike that started with the advisers in Nam, then yes... Dems JFK, and LBJ, and finally... yep you guessed it... Good old Tricky Dick... another GOP kind of guy.
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This could be a smokescreen.
Vietnam Airlines enjoys protection on a large number of their routes, loads have always been good and international fares expensive. Lack of revenue is not the problem, quite possibly the opposite. So what's happened?
A short study of business in Vietnam will reveal that every now & then a large financial shortfall will appear. This often happens without warning or sufficient (read, credible) explanation.
As with most asian countries there is always an ulterior motive and when it comes to money, greed and corruption are common bedfellows.
It's true the local drivers have been promised/offered a 30%+30%+30% payrise and this money must (has to be seen to) come from somewhere. I suspect that once the expat paycuts have been achieved the local guys will be disappointed to learn their promised payrise has been with withdrawn. The black hole must be filled, and quietly.
Unfortunately, the expats are faced with a simple but unpalatable choice. Wear the paycut or vote with your feet.
Another characteristic of the Viets is that they have absolutely no anticipation. Crewing numbers have never been sufficient, (every day several aircraft pushed up on the fence), and resignations by expats will exacerbate an already critical situation. Which right now they will not be considering.
This will result in them advertising again for expat pilots and offering pre paycut (or better) wages. Sadly this won't happen before disrupting the lives of many good people.
The former CP has a vision of an all local crew airline. In which case one could reasonably expect to see an increase in "smoking holes". I pray this doesn't happen.
Rant over, best wishes and good luck to all...
Vietnam Airlines enjoys protection on a large number of their routes, loads have always been good and international fares expensive. Lack of revenue is not the problem, quite possibly the opposite. So what's happened?
A short study of business in Vietnam will reveal that every now & then a large financial shortfall will appear. This often happens without warning or sufficient (read, credible) explanation.
As with most asian countries there is always an ulterior motive and when it comes to money, greed and corruption are common bedfellows.
It's true the local drivers have been promised/offered a 30%+30%+30% payrise and this money must (has to be seen to) come from somewhere. I suspect that once the expat paycuts have been achieved the local guys will be disappointed to learn their promised payrise has been with withdrawn. The black hole must be filled, and quietly.
Unfortunately, the expats are faced with a simple but unpalatable choice. Wear the paycut or vote with your feet.
Another characteristic of the Viets is that they have absolutely no anticipation. Crewing numbers have never been sufficient, (every day several aircraft pushed up on the fence), and resignations by expats will exacerbate an already critical situation. Which right now they will not be considering.
This will result in them advertising again for expat pilots and offering pre paycut (or better) wages. Sadly this won't happen before disrupting the lives of many good people.
The former CP has a vision of an all local crew airline. In which case one could reasonably expect to see an increase in "smoking holes". I pray this doesn't happen.
Rant over, best wishes and good luck to all...
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Trung waited 10 seconds and then departed himself. He headed for downtown Saigon and destroyed the center of the palace. (President Nguyen Van Thieu escaped unhurt.)
He flew as an F/O on our B767, very handy some times especially in Hanoi.
We were approaching Hanoi one flight and being messed around no end, forced to hold way out for local traffic, a few words from Trung in Vietnamese over the radio and we were cleared for immediate priority approach.
I always found him to be quite a nice person, as long as you could overlook the fact he was a Traitor.
A 100% increase in local pilot salaries may not be all that much depending on how badly paid they are in the first place.
Unfortunately the pay cut sets a bad precedent for the rest of us in this part of the world and I'm sure we'll hear "You're lucky we're maintaining salaries, other airlines are cutting them.'' at our next pilots meeting.
A rapid voting with the feet and the resulting flight cancellations would be the best outcome from our point of view as you can bet management at other operators are waiting to see if VNA get away with it.
India is slowing down for expats, but the sand pit should still be worth a look.
Unfortunately the pay cut sets a bad precedent for the rest of us in this part of the world and I'm sure we'll hear "You're lucky we're maintaining salaries, other airlines are cutting them.'' at our next pilots meeting.
A rapid voting with the feet and the resulting flight cancellations would be the best outcome from our point of view as you can bet management at other operators are waiting to see if VNA get away with it.
India is slowing down for expats, but the sand pit should still be worth a look.
Thread Starter
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I will take the liberty of publishing a PM which I today recieved, but of course, shall remove the senders identity.
Je ne devrais pas confirmer.
You know this answer. Go somewhere where they will respect your contract.
There are many. one example is Shenzhen Airlines recruiting 54 foriegn pilots to live in Guangzhou, China and will pay 11,700 after taxes with bonus of $10,000 each year.
Vous devez considérer soigneusement, alors aller ailleurs.
Hello Nom de Plume,
Are you French by any chance? Sorry, just pure curiousity, off the record that is.
Are you French by any chance? Sorry, just pure curiousity, off the record that is.
Just wondered, as you're on the spot what you would suggest. After 4 months I finally finished all paper work, and XXXXX is inviting me for a sim. Don't know what to do, really. Too many negative changes there at the moment. Therefore, my dear colleague, what would you suggest?
are there any other airlines in the region that might be better (yes, I am quite interested in the region for a long time now, just have to go there).
Many thanks in advance, XXXXXXXXXX
Many thanks in advance, XXXXXXXXXX
Vous devez considérer soigneusement, alors aller ailleurs.