Only approach is NDB - is this 2008?
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Only approach is NDB - is this 2008?
Inbound to a certain nameless airport in a large country in Europe which has no radar so all procedural. Notams show VOR u/s. Call to approach about 150 nm out to advise ATC that we would require ILS approach, then advised ILS out of service (nothing on Notams) and to expect locator approach.
On arrival completed locator approach - night vis 10km but raining.
One controller handling APP/TWR/GND on one frequency (Approach) so much R/T chat etc. and several calls by various a/c not responded to.
So I am sat thinking, is this 2008? That we have to fly a locator approach (ok yes I have done plenty of those over the years - long before FMC was even heard of!), we have to be proactive to find out what type of approach we can expect, the status of an essential approach aid is not on the NOTAMs! Is it right that one controller appears to be handling APP, TWR and GND?
Any comments?
On arrival completed locator approach - night vis 10km but raining.
One controller handling APP/TWR/GND on one frequency (Approach) so much R/T chat etc. and several calls by various a/c not responded to.
So I am sat thinking, is this 2008? That we have to fly a locator approach (ok yes I have done plenty of those over the years - long before FMC was even heard of!), we have to be proactive to find out what type of approach we can expect, the status of an essential approach aid is not on the NOTAMs! Is it right that one controller appears to be handling APP, TWR and GND?
Any comments?
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I guess it would not hurt to mention the actual name of the airport as it might be a warning for our fellow airman. I think the airport is AHO, Alghero on Sardinia? Right?
This seems to happen every year. The annoying thing is that it takes them ages to do a flight check on the navaids as they are actually working.
Must be the bureaucracy.
The reason they say you can not fly the ILS is because there is no procedure to get you on there unless you have DME.
The fact that one contoller does everything is quite often seen in Europe. It does not make things easier especially when it's busy.
Lorel
This seems to happen every year. The annoying thing is that it takes them ages to do a flight check on the navaids as they are actually working.
Must be the bureaucracy.
The reason they say you can not fly the ILS is because there is no procedure to get you on there unless you have DME.
The fact that one contoller does everything is quite often seen in Europe. It does not make things easier especially when it's busy.
Lorel
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why the secrecy . . . . . . . . ?
Why is the airport "nameless" ? Most uncharacteristic on here !
"Say it as it is" . . . . . . "To hell with the consequences" . . . . ! !
Never mind just PPRuNe, it sounds as if air-safety in general is at risk at . . . . . well, wherever it is.
"Say it as it is" . . . . . . "To hell with the consequences" . . . . ! !
Never mind just PPRuNe, it sounds as if air-safety in general is at risk at . . . . . well, wherever it is.
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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I am actually of the opinion that 50% of all that forest of print on Notams is actually incorrect, either out of date, plain incorrect, or not valid for some reason! If the field was just down to an NDB approach and the limits are OK, what is wrong with that? I actually enjoy these 'creative flying' approaches far more than just banging off another ILS. Some countries do seem to have quite restrictive budgets with regard to airport maintenance and staffing (even Gatwick appears very backwards at 4 am on a Sunday!). We just have to remember that our job is to get in (within limits), whatever the condition of the airport facilities!
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Yes indeed, that would be Murcia once again. The VOR has been out of service for the larger part of this year, and the absence of navaids is Notam'd intermittently at best.
The VOR is controlled by the Spanish military, who don't seem prepared to maintain it or to give any idea when it will be back in service. The ILS is available, but there is no means of getting to it unless you have a Tacan - which is probably why the Spanish Airforce don't regard spending cash on the VOR as any kind of a priority. The end result is that lots of airliners end up doing locator approaches to an airfield with "interesting" ATC procedures - just like the 1930s!
I know that the local authorities are frustrated by the problem, but there is not much they can do without buying their own VOR (and they have considered it).
It is a pretty ludicrous situation, and of course safety is being compromised. The lack of timely Notam information to crews is pretty unforgivable too, though those of us who fly there regularly regard a "normal" service as a bonus.
You wouldn't get away with it in Northern Europe - just as well the weather in Spain is always perfect!
The VOR is controlled by the Spanish military, who don't seem prepared to maintain it or to give any idea when it will be back in service. The ILS is available, but there is no means of getting to it unless you have a Tacan - which is probably why the Spanish Airforce don't regard spending cash on the VOR as any kind of a priority. The end result is that lots of airliners end up doing locator approaches to an airfield with "interesting" ATC procedures - just like the 1930s!
I know that the local authorities are frustrated by the problem, but there is not much they can do without buying their own VOR (and they have considered it).
It is a pretty ludicrous situation, and of course safety is being compromised. The lack of timely Notam information to crews is pretty unforgivable too, though those of us who fly there regularly regard a "normal" service as a bonus.
You wouldn't get away with it in Northern Europe - just as well the weather in Spain is always perfect!
Thread Starter
I actually enjoy these 'creative flying' approaches far more than just banging off another ILS.
But I am asking the question is this state of affairs acceptable? It's different if we know that essential landings aids are off at the planning stage but when (theoretically) the first you know about this is when you are 3 minutes from the beacon is this really the world of modern ATC as it should be?
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MJV is getting more and more ridicuous ... and it WILL end in tears !!
Went there last week to be told the only available approach was a straight in visual (from the north) to R23. When we told the controller we were not visual, he really did not know what to do! He kept talking about other traffic that would prevent us flying the procedure...
The departure for R23 has (for us at least) has an emergency turn procedure. The tower controller (no radar and, cannot see the runway) gave us a straight ahead to 4000' clearence!
On top of that, there were no navaids available to fly a departure OR and emergency turn !!!!
Murcia, sort your sh1t out before someone ends up making a documentary about the crash!
Went there last week to be told the only available approach was a straight in visual (from the north) to R23. When we told the controller we were not visual, he really did not know what to do! He kept talking about other traffic that would prevent us flying the procedure...
The departure for R23 has (for us at least) has an emergency turn procedure. The tower controller (no radar and, cannot see the runway) gave us a straight ahead to 4000' clearence!
On top of that, there were no navaids available to fly a departure OR and emergency turn !!!!
Murcia, sort your sh1t out before someone ends up making a documentary about the crash!
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Murcia LELC/MJV!!!
Was there last week for the first time in 2 years and nothing has changed. NOTAMS that the NDB and VOR U\S planned on the ILS circling to land 23. Then the when we checked in, the ILS was U\S! Nothing in the NOTAMS that's the poor part.
MK
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Common factors for a CFIT:
NPA at night into an airport surronded by high terrain.
I've had the same experience in another part of the world, and at that time we used GPS/FMC in lieu of a DME. We informed ATC and flew the ILS (which had an ident but no DME). I don't see the fun in flying an approach in torrential rain, using a NDB that is more likely to point at the nearest CB than give the correct indication. But then again, I'm probably a bigger chicken than most pilots out there.
We are supposed to get rid of all NDB's by a certain year?
NPA at night into an airport surronded by high terrain.
I've had the same experience in another part of the world, and at that time we used GPS/FMC in lieu of a DME. We informed ATC and flew the ILS (which had an ident but no DME). I don't see the fun in flying an approach in torrential rain, using a NDB that is more likely to point at the nearest CB than give the correct indication. But then again, I'm probably a bigger chicken than most pilots out there.
We are supposed to get rid of all NDB's by a certain year?
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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I'd find it unacceptable in Northern Europe, but somewhere like Murcia where the problem is haze or flying into a sunset with very limited facilities is borderline. But, pilots MUST be prewarned to adequately plan and brief, and concealing the limited state of facilities in the hope everybody will go visual anyway is a bit naughty!
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"Some countries do seem to have quite restrictive budgets with regard to airport maintenance and staffing (even Gatwick appears very backwards at 4 am on a Sunday!)"
Rainboe would you like to elaborate on these comments? maintenance? staffing?
Rainboe would you like to elaborate on these comments? maintenance? staffing?
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location, location . . . . . . ?
MJV is getting more and more ridicuous ... and it WILL end in tears ! !
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Murcia is a military airfield that has in the last few years started to accept some civilian traffic and as such is not a large and well equiped airport. Surely if your airline chooses to fly there it must be on the understanding of the benefits and drawbacks that are implicit on such a destination. If you are uncomfortable with anything but radar vectors to an ILS approach just ask your airline to schedule the flights to Alicante a mere 30 miles away.
Whatever are we going to complain about next, steep approaches into City, high terrain near Innsbruck, windshear at Funchal, a short runway in Jersey... we are pilots, going to places where things are different should be part of the job.
Whatever are we going to complain about next, steep approaches into City, high terrain near Innsbruck, windshear at Funchal, a short runway in Jersey... we are pilots, going to places where things are different should be part of the job.
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Yes but, the Spanish want airlines to fly into there so they should update the airport.
I've had all sorts of nonsense there and it's a pain in the arse to be honest when you don't know what you're going to get. Don't forget we're not barnstormers and are expected to get people there in safety!
I've had all sorts of nonsense there and it's a pain in the arse to be honest when you don't know what you're going to get. Don't forget we're not barnstormers and are expected to get people there in safety!
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calypso
It is not because it is different it shouldn't be professional. Finding out that Notams/ ATIS don't reflect the actual situation 3 mins from an inbound fix is gash wherever it occurs. Last time it happened to me was in Austria, so it is not purely a Med thing
In any case, procedures in many airlines ( including I think Bob's) is that you have to break off the approach , hold, and rebrief for the new approach, hardly the slick operation you would wish to orchestrate.
It is surely incumbent on any airport to advise, in a timely fashion, any deficiencies not advertised by Notam /ATIS (if applicable) to inbound traffic at the first opportunity. Even if one's cheapo company sends you to the back of beyond, that is merely being professional ,& cack all to do with the perceived or actual status of the Airport.
It is not because it is different it shouldn't be professional. Finding out that Notams/ ATIS don't reflect the actual situation 3 mins from an inbound fix is gash wherever it occurs. Last time it happened to me was in Austria, so it is not purely a Med thing
In any case, procedures in many airlines ( including I think Bob's) is that you have to break off the approach , hold, and rebrief for the new approach, hardly the slick operation you would wish to orchestrate.
It is surely incumbent on any airport to advise, in a timely fashion, any deficiencies not advertised by Notam /ATIS (if applicable) to inbound traffic at the first opportunity. Even if one's cheapo company sends you to the back of beyond, that is merely being professional ,& cack all to do with the perceived or actual status of the Airport.
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I do agree that changes should be in the Notams and should have made that clear.
I was mostly replying to people complaining that the spanish military does not fix the VOR or replace the TACAN with an ILS. Is like going to stay with friends and complaining about the size of the television, or that they donīt fix the washing machine. Is a small military airport and operating there has is own challenges, they are different from operating to a fully equiped large international airport.
I was mostly replying to people complaining that the spanish military does not fix the VOR or replace the TACAN with an ILS. Is like going to stay with friends and complaining about the size of the television, or that they donīt fix the washing machine. Is a small military airport and operating there has is own challenges, they are different from operating to a fully equiped large international airport.
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It is possible that the ILS had failed AFTER you had recieved the NOTAM's, leaving ATC with nothing but the Locator approach. A lot of the airports around Europe have no ILS engineering support at night.
I presume you didn't have to fly a "raw" NDB approach, more likely an FMS driven approach with you monitoring the ADF needle/s to ensure the aircraft is within the required track limits? (That's how we do it...i don't know about others) The only real drawback then being a higher approach minima.
Lucky the NDB was radiating really
I presume you didn't have to fly a "raw" NDB approach, more likely an FMS driven approach with you monitoring the ADF needle/s to ensure the aircraft is within the required track limits? (That's how we do it...i don't know about others) The only real drawback then being a higher approach minima.
Lucky the NDB was radiating really