Only approach is NDB - is this 2008?
MJV is my local airport. I saw my son off there this morning to LGW. It is a great airport for SLF. Not the usual hustle and bustle of busy airports. I had no idea it was so lacking in landing aids etc. Reminds me of Lagos in the 70's/80's. (Probably still the same.). Anyway when the new runway at MJV is formally opened, there will be 24 hour civilian flights so maybe they will employ another ATC controller.
ComJam.
Your procedure is, IMO, the only way to go. Trouble is a lot of training departments are still in the dark ages...as are a lot of the regulatory agencies.
But those of you with a half decent FMS, load the NDB approach in the FMS, tune the NDB, display a needle and then let the machine do the work. LNAV and VNAV armed and the altitude selector set to MDA.
The magic will keep you on the approach track and cross the OM at the correct height. Leave it in VNAV to MDA or once inside the OM use V/S to get to MDA sooner. SAFE as houses, stress free and a no brainer. As to ComJam's higher minima...Why? You are still tracking the NDB, you are just tracking it using modern equipment.
Your procedure is, IMO, the only way to go. Trouble is a lot of training departments are still in the dark ages...as are a lot of the regulatory agencies.
But those of you with a half decent FMS, load the NDB approach in the FMS, tune the NDB, display a needle and then let the machine do the work. LNAV and VNAV armed and the altitude selector set to MDA.
The magic will keep you on the approach track and cross the OM at the correct height. Leave it in VNAV to MDA or once inside the OM use V/S to get to MDA sooner. SAFE as houses, stress free and a no brainer. As to ComJam's higher minima...Why? You are still tracking the NDB, you are just tracking it using modern equipment.
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Must be nearly time for a lecture from the great god of the skies himself.....
7 hours, ASFKAP, however just a bit closer to Euroland time, at the present.
Lets see...most pilots should be able to complete the NDB approach, after all, it's part of the training to hold an ATPL.
Can't do this...?
Find another job.
However, flown-it has quite a reasonable suggestion....use the automatics available in your new(er) aeroplanes.
Seems like a cinch to me.
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It seems to me that the point is neither inability nor an unwillingness on the part of those doing the flying, but rather a complete lack of professionalism on the part of those maintaining the infrastructure and providing the necessary services.
We can all sit back and say - well, it is easy to fly with minimal navaids if you are skilled, but that misses the point entirely.
We no longer fly globally with a sextant and sliderule as it is totally unnecessary, and technological advances have moved hand in hand with safety to create today's culture.
So no, it is not acceptable for such services to be delivered in this day and age.
The best pilot and company culture is not the one that accepts the status quo, and relies on that basic flying ability, but the one that stands up to drive forward the robust, integrated technological and safety-based culture to which we have rightly become accustomed.
Rant off.
We can all sit back and say - well, it is easy to fly with minimal navaids if you are skilled, but that misses the point entirely.
We no longer fly globally with a sextant and sliderule as it is totally unnecessary, and technological advances have moved hand in hand with safety to create today's culture.
So no, it is not acceptable for such services to be delivered in this day and age.
The best pilot and company culture is not the one that accepts the status quo, and relies on that basic flying ability, but the one that stands up to drive forward the robust, integrated technological and safety-based culture to which we have rightly become accustomed.
Rant off.
411A
You do not know what you are talking about. This is a proc Lct App with no DME. This alone is no probs for a comercial pilot. The problem is that at MJV you don't know you are doing it until you are 20 Nm away and in crap wx with crap ATC it becomes a joke. It is also a very tight proc and if you have to do it in IMC unless you are 4000 or less overhead you have no chance in getting in. They clear you down "continue down 70" then tell you report ready base or some other crap that they make up on the spot. It's a joke. Last time I went the notam telling us that the only app was the lct "o" was not there and all nav aids were working. 20 nm from airport high because ALT would not give us lower "clear "o" app, we siad what about the VOR, reply oh yes its not working again sorry!!!! Very often this airport breaks down because the ATC is so bad, I have been flying there for 6 years now and it's not a safe environment for jets to be wizzing around. I have seen at least 5 times two aircraft cleared to the same level in the hold I have seen aircraft departing on 05 with inbounds at 7 mile to rwy 23. Half Spanish and Very bad English at the best of times. Out of all the places I have ever flown there is more chance of two jets hitting each other here than any other place in Europe. I would would rather stick a blinfold on and bimble about in the London TMA than put my faith in the controlling ability of MJV.
Having said all that just got back from MXP............................
You do not know what you are talking about. This is a proc Lct App with no DME. This alone is no probs for a comercial pilot. The problem is that at MJV you don't know you are doing it until you are 20 Nm away and in crap wx with crap ATC it becomes a joke. It is also a very tight proc and if you have to do it in IMC unless you are 4000 or less overhead you have no chance in getting in. They clear you down "continue down 70" then tell you report ready base or some other crap that they make up on the spot. It's a joke. Last time I went the notam telling us that the only app was the lct "o" was not there and all nav aids were working. 20 nm from airport high because ALT would not give us lower "clear "o" app, we siad what about the VOR, reply oh yes its not working again sorry!!!! Very often this airport breaks down because the ATC is so bad, I have been flying there for 6 years now and it's not a safe environment for jets to be wizzing around. I have seen at least 5 times two aircraft cleared to the same level in the hold I have seen aircraft departing on 05 with inbounds at 7 mile to rwy 23. Half Spanish and Very bad English at the best of times. Out of all the places I have ever flown there is more chance of two jets hitting each other here than any other place in Europe. I would would rather stick a blinfold on and bimble about in the London TMA than put my faith in the controlling ability of MJV.
Having said all that just got back from MXP............................
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I am sure nobody disagrees that all of us should be able to fly an NDB (even one based on the low powered "Oscar" Locator at Murcia). As a regular attendee at the MJV funfair, it is painfully apparent that, though the field has perfectly good navaids, they are unavailable more often than not and there is no priority whatever put in to returning them to service.
On nearly every occasion, crews unfamiliar with the vagaries of this airport are finding out late in the day that the approach they reasonably expected is unavailable to them. The resulting chaos on the R/T, and the limited language skills of the controllers, combine to give rise to potential conflictions from every angle.
I was there yesterday, and enjoyed flying an entirely visual approach with no other traffic about. It was an entirely different story a few months back when the place was surrounded by CBs and heavy rain and ATC had lost the plot to such an extent that everybody's situational awareness was severely degraded.
The situation at MJV has been MOR'd on many occasions in the past, but nothing has ever been heard back. I have a feeling that national sensitivities and diplomatic niceties result in issues being raised in one country, but never reaching the appropriate authorities in another.
I would also make the point that, while flying an NDB approach is indeed good fun, non precision approaches have an appallingly bad safety record (at least 7 times more hull-loss accidents per approach than ILS).
I am quite happy flying to Murcia, it always keeps you on your toes at least! The just need to sort themselves out - particularly with regard to Notam's. When they do come, they tend to be several weeks late if the come at all.
On nearly every occasion, crews unfamiliar with the vagaries of this airport are finding out late in the day that the approach they reasonably expected is unavailable to them. The resulting chaos on the R/T, and the limited language skills of the controllers, combine to give rise to potential conflictions from every angle.
I was there yesterday, and enjoyed flying an entirely visual approach with no other traffic about. It was an entirely different story a few months back when the place was surrounded by CBs and heavy rain and ATC had lost the plot to such an extent that everybody's situational awareness was severely degraded.
The situation at MJV has been MOR'd on many occasions in the past, but nothing has ever been heard back. I have a feeling that national sensitivities and diplomatic niceties result in issues being raised in one country, but never reaching the appropriate authorities in another.
I would also make the point that, while flying an NDB approach is indeed good fun, non precision approaches have an appallingly bad safety record (at least 7 times more hull-loss accidents per approach than ILS).
I am quite happy flying to Murcia, it always keeps you on your toes at least! The just need to sort themselves out - particularly with regard to Notam's. When they do come, they tend to be several weeks late if the come at all.
Warning Toxic!
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Chap6168
This refers to the frustrations of short staffing! In particular when on remote stands getting ground power at 5am (esp on a Sunday), parking stands open and ready, getting buses for the passengers, in particular getting buses for the crews to leave the aeroplane and go home after a long night.......
Some countries do seem to have quite restrictive budgets with regard to airport maintenance and staffing (even Gatwick appears very backwards at 4 am on a Sunday!
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411A
You do not know what you are talking about
You do not know what you are talking about
Recently it was...'proceed direct xxx beacon, cleared ILS 23 approach, localizer OTS'
Not to be deterred, the First Officer whips out the NDB plate, and does his job to perfection.
Simple fact is...you have to be adaptable, at some airfields.
Like it or not, and of course, many won't.
I would also make the point that, while flying an NDB approach is indeed good fun, non precision approaches have an appallingly bad safety record (at least 7 times more hull-loss accidents per approach than ILS).
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Something will only change if the proper people with influence know exactly what the issues are. You all know that airline management only fly desks!! Start piling up those MORs about the poor ATC and your airline will have a fighting chance of confronting MJV Airport Management, UK and Spanish Regulators and getting something done. Rant on Pprune and you will not be heard!!
PS Haven't been to MJV for a while now, but at teh time it seemed actually more civilised than the other places I was being sent to
PS Haven't been to MJV for a while now, but at teh time it seemed actually more civilised than the other places I was being sent to
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How about doing a D/F procedure, instead of Radio Range, and give you a few QDL for fun...?
Not my fault if you gents consider your FMS to be "no-go" item...
Happy contrails
Not my fault if you gents consider your FMS to be "no-go" item...
Happy contrails
Quote from above.
"Leave it in VNAV to MDA or once inside the OM use V/S to get to MDA sooner".
Descending below the nominal approach path is extremely bad procedurally for a modern airline and leads to large thrust changes and unstable approaches, not to mention reduced terrain separation. Dragging it in at MDA went out with the Ark.
"Leave it in VNAV to MDA or once inside the OM use V/S to get to MDA sooner".
Descending below the nominal approach path is extremely bad procedurally for a modern airline and leads to large thrust changes and unstable approaches, not to mention reduced terrain separation. Dragging it in at MDA went out with the Ark.
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411A
The higher minima i was refering to is the NDB approach minima as opposed to the ILS minima....
Airbrake, i agree dragging it in level at MDA is "old-hat", in my experience the FMS will generally fly a nice steady decent to reach MDA at or around the MAPt. However, there is nothing wrong with dropping to MDA early and flying in level to the MAPt if you need to for whatever reason.
As for the idea of ATC telling you which approach to expect at 20nm, if that's too tight and will lead to a rushed approach surely the sensible thing to do is to take up the hold until you're happy...
MOR-ing the ATC unit / airport operator because the ILS is not NOTAM'd "out of service" is a bit harsh if the ILS has only just failed. Might not have been the case this time, but we just don't know.
The higher minima i was refering to is the NDB approach minima as opposed to the ILS minima....
Airbrake, i agree dragging it in level at MDA is "old-hat", in my experience the FMS will generally fly a nice steady decent to reach MDA at or around the MAPt. However, there is nothing wrong with dropping to MDA early and flying in level to the MAPt if you need to for whatever reason.
As for the idea of ATC telling you which approach to expect at 20nm, if that's too tight and will lead to a rushed approach surely the sensible thing to do is to take up the hold until you're happy...
MOR-ing the ATC unit / airport operator because the ILS is not NOTAM'd "out of service" is a bit harsh if the ILS has only just failed. Might not have been the case this time, but we just don't know.
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Comjam! 'Take up the hold' ... yeh right. Do you know how much fuel is? It's more expensive than lager. I think the locals are stripping the aids for trinkets
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An ILS is safer than NDB, a 4000m runway safer than a 2000m one a sunny day safer than a rainy day. Yes clearly but
is clearly an exageration, particularly now with GPS, triple IRS, double FMC, GPWS, capable autopilot,etc unless your definition of Very Poor is somewhat different to mine.
The fact is we do not always fly on calm sunny days to ILS radar vectored approaches to a 4000m runway, flat terrain all round, all R/T by native english speakers, etc, etc As pilots we takeoff from Gatwick and land in Ghana or Paris or Keflavik or indeed Murcia. Does it really distress you so that is not always Gatwick-A to Gatwick-B? Do you find it so challenging that you have to adapt to the prevailing conditions at the different airports? be those due to weather, terain, local culture, available funds.
An NDB approach may have a lower safety record than an ILS but is not an unsafe procedure as implied by some. Saying that it is 7 times more unsafe is a great missuse of satistics as it does not convey the fact that the safety record of both tipes of approaches (certainly in the last ten years) is extremely good.
Surely if your original plan is not workable airmanship dictates that you have a plan B, a plan C, a plan D and so on. Is all on a days work folks!
the record for jet transports flying these approaches is very poor
The fact is we do not always fly on calm sunny days to ILS radar vectored approaches to a 4000m runway, flat terrain all round, all R/T by native english speakers, etc, etc As pilots we takeoff from Gatwick and land in Ghana or Paris or Keflavik or indeed Murcia. Does it really distress you so that is not always Gatwick-A to Gatwick-B? Do you find it so challenging that you have to adapt to the prevailing conditions at the different airports? be those due to weather, terain, local culture, available funds.
An NDB approach may have a lower safety record than an ILS but is not an unsafe procedure as implied by some. Saying that it is 7 times more unsafe is a great missuse of satistics as it does not convey the fact that the safety record of both tipes of approaches (certainly in the last ten years) is extremely good.
Surely if your original plan is not workable airmanship dictates that you have a plan B, a plan C, a plan D and so on. Is all on a days work folks!