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Cargo B tail strike at BRU.

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Cargo B tail strike at BRU.

Old 29th Oct 2008, 11:55
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting! I thought that V-Speeds were entered into the FMC though? How does the MCP speed come into play during take off?
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Old 29th Oct 2008, 20:23
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Thumbs down tailstrike CBA

probally that happened; wrong weight will give wrong speeds (low) and thrust setting (low), and you have to fly at Vr> tailstrike
what about X-checking the T/O calculations between pilots
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Old 29th Oct 2008, 20:40
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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What about on older "fashioned" way......calculate speeds according tables in QRH, then verify and crosscheck them with the speeds calculated by the FMC?
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Old 29th Oct 2008, 20:58
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then verify and crosscheck them with the speeds calculated by the FMC?
Of course - I'm using a belt and braces approach. You should see me and altimetry
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Old 29th Oct 2008, 22:13
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As expected, the typical and quite stupid PPRUNE remark

Very usefull input ETOPS!

Happy flying

Doc.
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Old 30th Oct 2008, 14:24
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Interesting picture. I was always told that if we over rotated heavy we would strike more forward, and if empty, further aft, due to strut compression.
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Old 30th Oct 2008, 14:32
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To avoid mistakes...

Flying 747-200, I always leave the cockpit with "bugs" and "numbers" zeroed.
The 5 airspeed bugs are pressed together.
The dial is set to lowest value.
Altimeter bugs and selectors, same story...
Transponder - reset to 2000.
xxx
Every qualified pilot should have "approximate speeds" in their head.
Takeoff or landing, heavy and light weight.
I know approximate EPRs, N1 or FF...
Approximate CG pitch trim setting should be known too.
xxx

Happy contrails
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Old 30th Oct 2008, 14:48
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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V2 rule of thumb (747 Classic): Take first 2 digits of gross weight in Tonnes. Double it. Put a 1 in front of it. That's V2 for Flaps 20.

Example: 327 Tonnes. Round to 330. Double 33 for 66. Put 1 in front for 166.

Accurate to about 3 KIAS.
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Old 30th Oct 2008, 14:55
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Wonder what the insurance deductable may be if gross crew incompetence is proven?
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Old 30th Oct 2008, 15:14
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The same......
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Old 31st Oct 2008, 05:15
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Flamin Squirrel,

For departure, the speed bug on the mode control panel (mcp) is set to V2, on the 757 / 767 the flight directors will guide you to V2 plus 15 knots (faster if you rotate slower than optimum) after rotation.

I have not flown the 744 but I would imagine they follow the same procedure.
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 16:32
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I was told the crew made an error of 100 tons when calculating take off performance.
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 22:34
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extended tail ground contact

The damage in the picture would seem to suggest that, after initial rotation didn't lift the a/c, the "pull" was continued, maybe in fear as the end of the TORA approached.

you can see the marks on the lower area starting approx where Boeing would have had their "oak log" positioned for their minimum unstick speed test-flight t/o's.

the rear extensive damage is consistent with extended contact AND loading. this would have continued until the aircraft reached an a/s that allowed it fly away... in this case before it hit anything in the net t/o flightpath.

anyone know if the crew increased/firewalled the power when it was obvious that.......?

A word of humility here: everyone makes mistakes, thankfully most of us don't find ours on PPRUNE... although i do check! lol lol
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 13:55
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What is happening with the aircraft? For repair or W/O?
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 17:34
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It's been (or being) repaired, but I don't know if it will return to Cargo B service as OO-CBC (744) is coming in the next few months.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 18:32
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Errors

Don't know about (possibly updated) -200 avionics, but if .....

an FMC is available and ...
FMC figures are used for V-speeds, ....

then, as often indicated by Boeing,

... if Zero Fuel Mass is entered in the Gross Mass line,

you make the largest error possible, all your fuel mass is not taken into account (was the fuel mass for this a/c reported as some 100 tons?)

and the result may look like what you see in the pictures.

Of course, other types of errors may produce the same result, but FMC people, watch out and use sensible cross checks as given before by other posters.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 20:33
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I was told the crew made an error of 100 tons when calculating take off performance.
... if Zero Fuel Mass is entered in the Gross Mass line,

you make the largest error possible, all your fuel mass is not taken into account (was the fuel mass for this a/c reported as some 100 tons?)

and the result may look like what you see in the pictures.
This 100 ton (or 100K lbs) error has occured many times in large aircraft, on takeoff and landing, sometimes causing scrapes, sometimes causing a mishap. I have a friend who flew out of the miscalculation with a slow rotation and a very long runway.

Some ACARS software won't let you check the weather until the fuel is entered, some folks put in zero to get the box off the initialization page. Obviously, I've never been crazy about this technique.

Some places teach a rough setup with expected weights, finetuned later with the actual data. Other places are adamant that you should wait until you get a final loadsheet, paper or electronic, to enter anything.

Flying 747-200, I always leave the cockpit with "bugs" and "numbers" zeroed.
I went to the same schoolhouse in MIA and still have that habit a couple of jobs later.
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