Crew fatigue
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crew fatigue
Any of you guys that fly long haul have what we call tag legs? In other words you fly 8.5 hours with an augmented crew all night. Land at an intermediate destination and sit for 1.5 hours then fly on to your destination.
We have such a trip on our schedule for next month. Although technically legal it is obviously patently unsafe in my opinion.
Just wanted to get some input and see if it is common with other airlines.
Fly Safe!
We have such a trip on our schedule for next month. Although technically legal it is obviously patently unsafe in my opinion.
Just wanted to get some input and see if it is common with other airlines.
Fly Safe!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: US
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've gotten it after just a four or five hour flight. I've found that the fatigue is a little better if I can just stand up and get the blood flowing to my legs for just a few minutes every couple of hours. I don't usually do 8+ hour flights nonstop....so can't help you there!!! Hope that helps!
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my (UK charter) company we do long haul flights designated either as 'heavy' (3 pilots, resting on F/D), or 'augmented' (3 pilots, minimum 3 hrs in an allegedly comfortable seat in the cabin). Invariably it's one sector - I suppose it could theoretically be two - but the 90 min on the ground would be irrelevant under UK rules, as only 3 hrs will do.
Please withdraw all your posts or else the UK CAA will think this is a good idea ......
Please withdraw all your posts or else the UK CAA will think this is a good idea ......
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately in the UK we are allowed to do more than 9 Hour sectors two crew under the Florida 2 variation.
Shows what a gutless and toothless organisation like the CAA will agree to when the airlines ask....
Hope they don't see this either as this is just the sort of cr@p they like to pull!
Shows what a gutless and toothless organisation like the CAA will agree to when the airlines ask....
Hope they don't see this either as this is just the sort of cr@p they like to pull!
Alba Gu Brath
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Raas767 What is it about the duty that you feel is 'patently unsafe'? Surely if is within the limits imposed on your scheduling document then the unsafe factors have been taken into account? Not being provocotive just trying to get an understanding of what you feel about it.
jshg The rest can be added together from the 2 sectors to give a cumulative total of 3 hours. It doesn't have to be 3 consecutive hours rest.
jshg The rest can be added together from the 2 sectors to give a cumulative total of 3 hours. It doesn't have to be 3 consecutive hours rest.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On our 767's the crew rest seat is in the cabin. About the only way you can sleep is if you have the second break when there is no service. First guy on break can't sleep because of dinner service going on around him and the third guy gets woken up by breakfast. If the airplane had bunks where you could really rest it would be one thing but in this case you are flying around with 3 REALLY tired pilots on the tag leg. Added to the equation is that very many pilots don't live at base and have to commute in. Some have kids and can't sleep before the trip etc. All this makes it patently unsafe in my opinion.
I have been doing all night flying for a really long time and when I land I usually feel like a bucket of smashed a&%$holes. I can't imagine strapping in again and flying for another 2 hours.
As usual, however, the mighty buck wins over safety and common sense every time!
I have been doing all night flying for a really long time and when I land I usually feel like a bucket of smashed a&%$holes. I can't imagine strapping in again and flying for another 2 hours.
As usual, however, the mighty buck wins over safety and common sense every time!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: It wasn't me, I wasn't there, wrong country ;-)
Age: 79
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a conundrum which has caused many discussions/investigations/studies here in the UK.
The crew scheduling folks have a guide book to work from, be they CAP371 or a local/company agreement. Which ever applies the crewing/rostering staff have that guide book, as well as their people handling/appreciating skills.
Scheduling to the limits should never be condoned, I add to that the requirement for a crew member to be adequately rested before a duty period.
I am a firm advocate of strict FTLs, always have been since the first draft of what became CAP371.
But, and a big BUT is that we all have to play to the rules, in other words schedule your day around your duty, you ain't paying the bills, your employer is!
The crew scheduling folks have a guide book to work from, be they CAP371 or a local/company agreement. Which ever applies the crewing/rostering staff have that guide book, as well as their people handling/appreciating skills.
Scheduling to the limits should never be condoned, I add to that the requirement for a crew member to be adequately rested before a duty period.
I am a firm advocate of strict FTLs, always have been since the first draft of what became CAP371.
But, and a big BUT is that we all have to play to the rules, in other words schedule your day around your duty, you ain't paying the bills, your employer is!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Needless to say, the "commuting" part, and the part about "having kids" aren't factored into your scheduled "duty period."
You would be well to do to position into your assigned base the day before and ensure a day's rest on your own time. But you are probably too cheap to want to pay for a hotel, so you dead head live into your flight.
Sounds more like a personal problem.
You would be well to do to position into your assigned base the day before and ensure a day's rest on your own time. But you are probably too cheap to want to pay for a hotel, so you dead head live into your flight.
Sounds more like a personal problem.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tell that to the people in the back....
There is no law against commuting. Flying the back side of the clock is intrinsic in this business but when you land after an 8 hour flight you should go to the hotel. Not plan another leg. I didn't start this post to argue. I just wanted to get a sense as to how common this is in the industry as a whole and what your opinions are.
There is no law against commuting. Flying the back side of the clock is intrinsic in this business but when you land after an 8 hour flight you should go to the hotel. Not plan another leg. I didn't start this post to argue. I just wanted to get a sense as to how common this is in the industry as a whole and what your opinions are.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Down South
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cwatters, i'm sure they would if they got paid the same wage as the drivers 
I've always thought that every crew member should spend a few shifts in crew scheduling/Ops as well
Have to agree with merlinxx on this one
I've always thought that every crew member should spend a few shifts in crew scheduling/Ops as wellHave to agree with merlinxx on this one
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: It wasn't me, I wasn't there, wrong country ;-)
Age: 79
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cwatters & DrPat
This was always an intrinsic part of any operation I had influence over, a 12 month jump seat ride with a full log was required. Under FAA rules a Dispatcher must fly the routes he controls, but in the UK there is no requirement, but I still did it and not just on our own acft. I still consider CAP371 a very well thought out document, the responsibility is shared between those that schedule and those that accept the duty.
Having jump seated between YSSY & EGLL (no bloody beer) it's shagging awful, there was a crew change in SIN, but it can be done with a heavy crew, sod that.
I've seen the effects of fatigue after extended duty, folks too bloody tired/fatigued to even get into the motor and drive home, it is concerning and yes I did something about it, insist they have a 60 min nap in the crew quiet room, I'll have the staff call home to say what's going on. It bloody well worked, that's why we had such great crews.
Having jump seated between YSSY & EGLL (no bloody beer) it's shagging awful, there was a crew change in SIN, but it can be done with a heavy crew, sod that.
I've seen the effects of fatigue after extended duty, folks too bloody tired/fatigued to even get into the motor and drive home, it is concerning and yes I did something about it, insist they have a 60 min nap in the crew quiet room, I'll have the staff call home to say what's going on. It bloody well worked, that's why we had such great crews.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 3rd Rock From the Sun
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've always thought that every crew member should spend a few shifts in crew scheduling/Ops as well
DrPat - Why??? What would that actually accomplish? Are you serious or are you on something? Crewing sits there and don't have to directly answer to anyone regarding the ultimate safety of the fare paying passengers. The rules are made to keep you legal; not alive. Legal does not necessarily means safe, especially in this industry. Let's be real here and stop behaving like little girls playing tit for tat games. Maybe if some of us grew up and dropped the egos this entire industry would not be so full of idiots who play with peoples' lives. I can go on forever but it would'nt accomplish anything -will it?
DrPat - Why??? What would that actually accomplish? Are you serious or are you on something? Crewing sits there and don't have to directly answer to anyone regarding the ultimate safety of the fare paying passengers. The rules are made to keep you legal; not alive. Legal does not necessarily means safe, especially in this industry. Let's be real here and stop behaving like little girls playing tit for tat games. Maybe if some of us grew up and dropped the egos this entire industry would not be so full of idiots who play with peoples' lives. I can go on forever but it would'nt accomplish anything -will it?
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Down South
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oceanpotion - It may achieve a better understanding of what Crewing actually do as some closed-minded individuals think we sit all day playing with peoples' rosters for fun! I have been asked many times by flight deck if they can come and sit in Ops/Crewing for a few hours to experience it and it's been an excellent experience for both crew and crewing. Oh and we answer to the CAA (or relevant regulatory body) about safety, not passengers
Anyway, i've drifted away from the topic, apologies!
Anyway, i've drifted away from the topic, apologies!
DrPat, with all due respect, I think it is totally irrelevant if you encounter stress during your 9-5 job if what "we" are talking about is trying to keep your eyes open during an approach which might kill you or get you fired if you're lucky.
More often than not, people "on the ground" tend to forget how demanding the job as an airline pilot can be, so in no way you are entitled to even try to compare both functions. Amongst others, this kind of respect has vanished the last years in the continuous mockery against crew. Sad, but true. We are not schedulers, mechanics, loadmasters or what have you. We are our own profession incomparable with yours.
The regulations you are working with each and everyday are a limit, not a target. Pushing people to the limit over and over again might have once the wrong outcome.
On the other hand, what often fails in most scheduling departments is some common sense. So many things could be improved without additional cost to the company, but no, everything needs to be written down in law or CWA to push some reason into people. Sorry drPat and Merlinxx, but I definitely think you are not correct on this one,
More often than not, people "on the ground" tend to forget how demanding the job as an airline pilot can be, so in no way you are entitled to even try to compare both functions. Amongst others, this kind of respect has vanished the last years in the continuous mockery against crew. Sad, but true. We are not schedulers, mechanics, loadmasters or what have you. We are our own profession incomparable with yours.
The regulations you are working with each and everyday are a limit, not a target. Pushing people to the limit over and over again might have once the wrong outcome.
On the other hand, what often fails in most scheduling departments is some common sense. So many things could be improved without additional cost to the company, but no, everything needs to be written down in law or CWA to push some reason into people. Sorry drPat and Merlinxx, but I definitely think you are not correct on this one,
Raas 767 - sounds like a freight operation. We had a trip like that on our network when I was flying boxes. Except that the short trip was the frst leg - and we weren't augmented. It was very tiring. 
And the Florida 2. Don't even start me on that
It was designed for occasional use by charter operators. But we were using it for regular use on a schedule - and we also had to report to Heathrow and then travel to Gatwick by road prior to the trip. It was so fatiguing - it was downright dangerous. Despite the ASRs relating to crews falling asleep, the CAA still allowed it.
I sorted out my fatigue problems by changing to a short haul job. Much better.
And the Florida 2. Don't even start me on that
It was designed for occasional use by charter operators. But we were using it for regular use on a schedule - and we also had to report to Heathrow and then travel to Gatwick by road prior to the trip. It was so fatiguing - it was downright dangerous. Despite the ASRs relating to crews falling asleep, the CAA still allowed it.I sorted out my fatigue problems by changing to a short haul job. Much better.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recently attended a seminar conducted by two professional Doctors in the field of Human Factors and Fatigue in aviation, hosted by the US ATSB. They talked about a particular ATSB investigation of an accident that occurred at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba on 18 August 1993 involving a MD8-61 aircraft.
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-8-61 N814CK Guantánamo NAS (NBW)
At this seminar was the Captain of that flight. He spoke of the accident and how after the many years of investigation by the ATSB, how fatigue played a major role in this accident. It was very emotional for this gentleman, after all these years to talk about that day. All 3 crew members walked away from the accident, which was a miracle in itself. I urge you to take the time to read this accident report and research the accident. Fatigue is a real issue for pilots, especially in cargo operations.
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-8-61 N814CK Guantánamo NAS (NBW)
At this seminar was the Captain of that flight. He spoke of the accident and how after the many years of investigation by the ATSB, how fatigue played a major role in this accident. It was very emotional for this gentleman, after all these years to talk about that day. All 3 crew members walked away from the accident, which was a miracle in itself. I urge you to take the time to read this accident report and research the accident. Fatigue is a real issue for pilots, especially in cargo operations.