Pilots blamed INITIALLY in 2006 British Airways crunching of lights at MIA
I'm still astounded that the NTSB would make an error like this. It was either pilot error or it wasn't. A phone call from the BA Head of Safety shouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the report if the NTSB are publishing the facts. It makes you wonder how many other NTSB reports are works of fiction that haven't yet been challenged. Sadly,I feel that the NTSB have lost a lot of credibility here. It almost smacks of a pro-American institutional bias within the NTSB ?
Perhaps 411A works for the NTSB?
Perhaps 411A works for the NTSB?
Last edited by hunterboy; 9th Oct 2008 at 18:04. Reason: readability
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Everybody makes mistakes - and that includes the prodigal son of gawd himself, aka 411a (must me his son, 'cos gawd owns the airline, otherwise how on earth can you land on the RHS directly without the FO experience)
Mistakes can be called by other names depending on the POV.
1-Well first of all MIA, for not having the lighting system up to international standards as per regulations.
2-The NTSB, because they rushed things.
3-The classical "Laissez-faire" American attitude when it comes to evaluate their own sub-standard aviation industry but keen on keeping the foreigners under close scrutiny.
4-these pilots for choosing MIA over HKG as long haul route
411a,
theoretically you can go on forever without making a single mistake, but at the same time you can be forcing others to make them in your behalf, ain't it?
Be well fly safe and take good care of that good old Tri-Star... we need her back at the museum in one piece.
GD&L
Mistakes can be called by other names depending on the POV.
1-Well first of all MIA, for not having the lighting system up to international standards as per regulations.
2-The NTSB, because they rushed things.
3-The classical "Laissez-faire" American attitude when it comes to evaluate their own sub-standard aviation industry but keen on keeping the foreigners under close scrutiny.
4-these pilots for choosing MIA over HKG as long haul route
411a,
theoretically you can go on forever without making a single mistake, but at the same time you can be forcing others to make them in your behalf, ain't it?
Be well fly safe and take good care of that good old Tri-Star... we need her back at the museum in one piece.
GD&L
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but that just illustrates the problem with you, doesn't it ... ?
If there is a so-called 'problem', it must be shared by quite a few older Commanders, JumboDriver, as many of us have the same opinions.
When we all retire, then you can double the psycho-babble training, for what it's worth (which ain't much)...
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Fate is the hunter...
Our sky-god operates a large aircraft to Africa and wants to diss others for their presumed mistakes while boasting that he, sorry, He has never made one himself. That is bold!
I must have flown with his twin brother as a thin layer of scum on the RHS of a DC-3. Forget CRM, his twin brother didn't even believe in headsets!
I look forward with interest to the story about the L-1011 parked on top of the Airport Commandant's Peugeot 504 and what happened afterwards. It will make this bickering about squashing a measly set of taxiway lights pale in comparison.
I must have flown with his twin brother as a thin layer of scum on the RHS of a DC-3. Forget CRM, his twin brother didn't even believe in headsets!
I look forward with interest to the story about the L-1011 parked on top of the Airport Commandant's Peugeot 504 and what happened afterwards. It will make this bickering about squashing a measly set of taxiway lights pale in comparison.
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You are, dear 411A, somewhat expectedly, rather missing the point. The problem is not with the opinions you hold but with the way they are put over.
I'm not speaking for "psycho-babble training", those were your words, not mine. However, getting on with your fellow aviator is always fundamental to safety. There is little room these days for "one-man-bands" in aviation.
I have seen flight decks where there is arrogance in the LHS and they are seldom happy (or indeed safe) places to work. An attitude of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" usually means it is the time to retire, before someone gets hurt.
I wish you a happy retirement.
Kindest regards,
JD
I'm not speaking for "psycho-babble training", those were your words, not mine. However, getting on with your fellow aviator is always fundamental to safety. There is little room these days for "one-man-bands" in aviation.
I have seen flight decks where there is arrogance in the LHS and they are seldom happy (or indeed safe) places to work. An attitude of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" usually means it is the time to retire, before someone gets hurt.
I wish you a happy retirement.
Kindest regards,
JD
Last edited by Jumbo Driver; 9th Oct 2008 at 20:20.
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411,
I really didn’t want this to turn into a pissing competition because I thought I may lose due simply to having youth on my side. A glimpse back at your posts however is quite revealing, and I must say delighted me immensely.
Despite the forever changing years of experience that you so often like to quote in one form or another –
11th April 2006: “I've been in command for 20+ years now in both military and commercial ops. And I might add for a major carrier...”
19th April 2006 …”Having been in the airline industry for over forty years......
9th October 2008….” I have never been a co-pilot in a jet airplane...and have been flying heavy jet transport types as a Commander since 1974.
- you don’t appear to have amassed a great deal of actual flying time, so it is hardly surprising that you have thus far managed to avoid those mistakes that us mere mortals make from time to time.
If you made 2,000 hrs since 23rd April 06 (when you clsimed to have 12,000 hours) it puts you under 15,000hrs to date, which in this day and age is not such a vast amount. I can therefore piss quite a bit further than you, and I am sure that many here can piss a LOT further than me – the difference I suspect though is that unlike you we are human, and therefore make errors of judgement - like reading the crap that you spout, and bothering to respond to it!
I really didn’t want this to turn into a pissing competition because I thought I may lose due simply to having youth on my side. A glimpse back at your posts however is quite revealing, and I must say delighted me immensely.
Despite the forever changing years of experience that you so often like to quote in one form or another –
11th April 2006: “I've been in command for 20+ years now in both military and commercial ops. And I might add for a major carrier...”
19th April 2006 …”Having been in the airline industry for over forty years......
9th October 2008….” I have never been a co-pilot in a jet airplane...and have been flying heavy jet transport types as a Commander since 1974.
- you don’t appear to have amassed a great deal of actual flying time, so it is hardly surprising that you have thus far managed to avoid those mistakes that us mere mortals make from time to time.
If you made 2,000 hrs since 23rd April 06 (when you clsimed to have 12,000 hours) it puts you under 15,000hrs to date, which in this day and age is not such a vast amount. I can therefore piss quite a bit further than you, and I am sure that many here can piss a LOT further than me – the difference I suspect though is that unlike you we are human, and therefore make errors of judgement - like reading the crap that you spout, and bothering to respond to it!
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thread title change required . . . . . . ? ?
This started out as a discussion about a nosewheel breaking two runway lights !
Now it could be called "The 411A bashing thread" ! Mind you, from what I've read, the bashing does seem fairly well deserved.
But don't be too hard chaps - - - he can't help it, he's a foreigner !
Now it could be called "The 411A bashing thread" ! Mind you, from what I've read, the bashing does seem fairly well deserved.
But don't be too hard chaps - - - he can't help it, he's a foreigner !
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11th April 2006: “I've been in command for 20+ years now in both military and commercial ops. And I might add for a major carrier...”
I've never been in the military, for starters.
Clearly you are totally misinformed.
The msg must have been from a CX imposter, who went by the psedo-name of 41IA...must clean your specticles, old boy.
Since 1966, yes, in alirline flying, for a variety of operators, overseas since 1971.
9th October 2008….” I have never been a co-pilot in a jet airplane...and have been flying heavy jet transport types as a Commander since 1974.
So, it would appear that not only can you not properly count, but fail to grasp facts, as well.
Recent public schooling, perhaps?
It is interesting to note, that Virgin flies quite a lot to America, yet fails to have the problems that BA apparently has, from time to time.
Perhaps it is time to turn over these BA routes to the bearded one...to keep the surface lights at MIA in (more or less) one piece.
One more time, if BA cannot stand the heat, stay firmly out of the kitchen...and especially with the 3-engine ferry, with passengers on board.
They were silly fools, in the extreme.
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Yet cleared by the investigations and still completed the flight with as many engines as you take off with. There are certainly silly fools out there, only closer to home than you realise.
Quote 411A It is interesting to note, that Virgin flies quite a lot to America, yet fails to have the problems that BA apparently has, from time to time.
Virgin has had it's moments in the US. I know - I used to fly 744s for them and have had a couple myself! The problem is not the always the operators, it's usually the airports. No matter how much you expound your attitudes that if your worried about making mistakes stay away, if you look deeper at the problems you will find common threads of runway incursions, taxiing problems, lost or ambiguous communications, TCAS RAs etc. (Of the 4 TCAS RAs I've had in my career, two have been at JFK.)
The FAA needs to look here to improve safety. Errors are part of avaition. And no matter how immune you think you are, they will happen. Threat and Error Management is the latest "psycho-babble" keyphrase and it's down to everyone to make an attempt to identify the threats and manage them. It's not just down to the crews.
And the American skygods who fly to Europe aren't immune from making mistakes. For example, the AA 777 crew who sent me around at LHR because they hadn't read their Jepps about who has priority when vacating and blocked the runway. Or the crew who landed at Brussels instead of Frankfurt.
And as for 411a being usally right!
Virgin has had it's moments in the US. I know - I used to fly 744s for them and have had a couple myself! The problem is not the always the operators, it's usually the airports. No matter how much you expound your attitudes that if your worried about making mistakes stay away, if you look deeper at the problems you will find common threads of runway incursions, taxiing problems, lost or ambiguous communications, TCAS RAs etc. (Of the 4 TCAS RAs I've had in my career, two have been at JFK.)
The FAA needs to look here to improve safety. Errors are part of avaition. And no matter how immune you think you are, they will happen. Threat and Error Management is the latest "psycho-babble" keyphrase and it's down to everyone to make an attempt to identify the threats and manage them. It's not just down to the crews.
And the American skygods who fly to Europe aren't immune from making mistakes. For example, the AA 777 crew who sent me around at LHR because they hadn't read their Jepps about who has priority when vacating and blocked the runway. Or the crew who landed at Brussels instead of Frankfurt.
And as for 411a being usally right!
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And the American skygods who fly to Europe aren't immune from making mistakes. For example, the AA 777 ...
Especially AA, but that is my personal opinion, of course.
As for the infrastructure at many very busy US airports, this could certainly be improved, just as it certainly could at, for example, LHR, MAD, FCO etc.
No one airport is immune....most anywhere.
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Originally Posted by 411A
>>I've been in command for 20+ years now in both military and commercial ops. And I might add for a major carrier....<<
Originally Posted by 411A
(To totallyspooled) I've never been in the military, for starters.
Clearly you are totally misinformed.
Clearly you are totally misinformed.
As you were, carry on.
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411A,
I believe I owe you an apology. Flintstone correctly points out that one of the quotes I attributed to you was in fact you quoting someone else. I therefore take back the false accusation, and trust that you will accept that it was a genuine mistake - of the kind that "most" of us make from time to time.
I'm pleased however to have won the pissing competition in terms of hours!
I believe I owe you an apology. Flintstone correctly points out that one of the quotes I attributed to you was in fact you quoting someone else. I therefore take back the false accusation, and trust that you will accept that it was a genuine mistake - of the kind that "most" of us make from time to time.
I'm pleased however to have won the pissing competition in terms of hours!
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...of the kind that "most" of us make from time to time.
Best regards, to you Sir.
I'm pleased however to have won the pissing competition in terms of hours!
Twenty six thousand...and counting.
Two years to go.
