Pilots blamed INITIALLY in 2006 British Airways crunching of lights at MIA
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Being based at MIA for 13 years I can understand confusion with taxiway signs and lights. I hated landing at night and getting off on an unfamiliar taxiway and finding myself back to familiar territory. I have even heard ground control appologize for the confusing signs when pilots couldn't figure out what they meant. If BA crunched a couple of lights, no big deal. It doesn't mean they were unprofessional, just made a tiny mistake. I landed at Denver once in a snowstorm and it took forever to get to the gate because all the taxiway signs were covered with snow, the visibility was bad and it was night time at an unfamiliar airport. I knew the chances of screwing up were very high no matter how careful I was. I hate trying to find my gate using my compass.
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As Bubbers44 says, Miami is confusing. I was based at FLL for years and always disliked it when we had to reposition or divert to MIA. Unfortunately, unlike many posters here, I was only human and occasionally would make a mistake.
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I would rather fly into LOS than any of the third world airports in the USA, you know the ones..... MIA,JFK,LAX and my very favourite ORD.
The US in my book is one to be avoided
The US in my book is one to be avoided
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A few facts, but dont let these get in the way of a story about "pilots not paying attention"
The lights were not to US standard (their words) and were upgraded 3 months after the event. The approach lights to RW 12 should have been back lit, they were not and were invisible from 36ft, cockpit ht. (2 FAA inspectors and the regional NTSB inspector in question agreed) The lights that lead off the Q area of RW 30 were bi-directional and should have omni -directional, fact. So guess what, you cant see them except over yr shoulder looking backwards and then only for a second. Why hasnt this happened before? well it has, VS ended up in the grass. There are very few 747 operators that go to MIA, very few land on rw 30, so very few that venture down that end of the RW. The westerly RW was asked for and was declined. When the error was realised, the airplane was stopped and assistance asked for, the safest thing to do.
2 out of the 3 pilots had landed on RW 30 just prior to the incident in daylight and had gd mental model about the expected picture, yet were still confused when faced with night landing. Does anybody here think that non standard and confusing lights could possibly could have contributed to the cause of the incident??? Let me re-iterate, non standard and confusing lights.
to quote from NTSB report
The FAA (both ex DC10 trng Capt) inspectors agreed 100% and when drove down the RW the following night, (MIA closed the RW) they couldnt see the RW exits either and they were in a car doing 5mph. Is anybody convinced yet?
The lights were not to US standard (their words) and were upgraded 3 months after the event. The approach lights to RW 12 should have been back lit, they were not and were invisible from 36ft, cockpit ht. (2 FAA inspectors and the regional NTSB inspector in question agreed) The lights that lead off the Q area of RW 30 were bi-directional and should have omni -directional, fact. So guess what, you cant see them except over yr shoulder looking backwards and then only for a second. Why hasnt this happened before? well it has, VS ended up in the grass. There are very few 747 operators that go to MIA, very few land on rw 30, so very few that venture down that end of the RW. The westerly RW was asked for and was declined. When the error was realised, the airplane was stopped and assistance asked for, the safest thing to do.
2 out of the 3 pilots had landed on RW 30 just prior to the incident in daylight and had gd mental model about the expected picture, yet were still confused when faced with night landing. Does anybody here think that non standard and confusing lights could possibly could have contributed to the cause of the incident??? Let me re-iterate, non standard and confusing lights.
to quote from NTSB report
"They recommended that runway end lights be placed behind each runway 12 approach light and that runway turnoff guidance lighting be installed."
The FAA (both ex DC10 trng Capt) inspectors agreed 100% and when drove down the RW the following night, (MIA closed the RW) they couldnt see the RW exits either and they were in a car doing 5mph. Is anybody convinced yet?
The FAA produced a circular prompted by this event
"However, after further consideration, we are currently reviewing our standards for runway end lighting and anticipate additional changes"
So, by inference, surely this means that there could be a problem with the lighting at MIA in particular.
Also, same report.
"It was noted that, in addition to runway 12/30, runway 8R/26L at MIA had similar
threshold lights that did not meet the current standards."
The crew were fully exonerated of any blame by the FAA inspector, and the NTSB inspector and more importantly BA at the time.
Please feel free to add, 411A, you are a kn** and have obviously never taxied a big airplane, must hurt.
411A
Much as I hate to bite:
Without turning this into an anti-US rant, do you ever wonder why the USA is held in contempt by whole swathes of the world?
Much as I hate to bite:
The USA, on the other hand, has had far more experience, on a huge scale for a very long time, so we can do what we want
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Without turning this into an anti-US rant, do you ever wonder why the USA is held in contempt by whole swathes of the world?
Don't have such an inferiority complex, England has a great history and nobody does a better parade!
Airbubba
That's the problem!!
Maybe you should fella!
By the way, I'm British,not English - there is a difference.
And we don't worry too much about what other nations think of us
Maybe you should fella!
By the way, I'm British,not English - there is a difference.
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what other nations think of us while they are trying to copy our exceptional success in every area.
Thanks Airbubba, that one made my day.....you are a great comedian, sir!
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SLF here
Reading the last posts, I do wonder how some highly qualified professionals are wasting their time arguing if Europe is better than USA or vice versa.
You ask us (SLFs) to trust your professionalism and judgement...while you get involved in this backyard fights?
I do not expect that a professional pilot is so emotional
Reading the last posts, I do wonder how some highly qualified professionals are wasting their time arguing if Europe is better than USA or vice versa.
You ask us (SLFs) to trust your professionalism and judgement...while you get involved in this backyard fights?
I do not expect that a professional pilot is so emotional
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Frequent SLF,
professional pilots are humans, with the same failures than 'the rest'. Thus some ranting against oversized egos is just plain normal, even here.
OnT: the signs, lights and their placement should be same all over the world. Wether US or ICAO style, the russian or Chines system - I donīt care, but Iīd like to have a single system.
Any pilot that has landed at some not too familiar place at night, after a long flight with sometimes sort of inadequate charts (even the Jepessen charts leave a LOT to be desired when it comes to airfield layout charts) maybe rain and with reflexions of strong lights that often seem to be mounted with the single purpose to blind pilots, knows that **** like that happens.
professional pilots are humans, with the same failures than 'the rest'. Thus some ranting against oversized egos is just plain normal, even here.
OnT: the signs, lights and their placement should be same all over the world. Wether US or ICAO style, the russian or Chines system - I donīt care, but Iīd like to have a single system.
Any pilot that has landed at some not too familiar place at night, after a long flight with sometimes sort of inadequate charts (even the Jepessen charts leave a LOT to be desired when it comes to airfield layout charts) maybe rain and with reflexions of strong lights that often seem to be mounted with the single purpose to blind pilots, knows that **** like that happens.
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His dudeness
Yes, you are right...
Is what I was thinking..but please read the full thread and you will see that few of the professional believe that they are immune to failures because of their professionalism and training.
Of course, my post will be bashed by those same people because I am not a pilot and thus not qualified to express my opinion on such issues...
All the best
professional pilots are humans, with the same failures than 'the rest'. Thus some ranting against oversized egos is just plain normal, even here.
Is what I was thinking..but please read the full thread and you will see that few of the professional believe that they are immune to failures because of their professionalism and training.
Of course, my post will be bashed by those same people because I am not a pilot and thus not qualified to express my opinion on such issues...
All the best
Last edited by FrequentSLF; 6th Oct 2008 at 04:48. Reason: His dudeness comment, changed "most" to "few". usage of "most" was not fair.
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Is what I was thinking..but please read the full thread and you will see that most of the professional believe that they are immune to failures because of their professionalism and training.
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"Often, these VIP charters are done with management pilots who don't fly that much from what I've seen at other carriers".
Not quite sure where this came from. As far as I know, BA209 is a scheduled flight.
Not quite sure where this came from. As far as I know, BA209 is a scheduled flight.
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I did that and I think you are is wrong. There is one guy that does not make ANY mistakes and has a comment on any error/mistake/incident that is discussed here. He never ever makes mistakes. IF that his real opinion and assesment of his flying than he is a really dangerous aviator.
However, rest assured that most pilots know that they are not unfailable and try to learn from every mistake they or others make. That is, for me at least, true proffesionalism, in ANY profession.
I mean it!
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From the BA Intranet - My bold
BA sets record straight on 747 incident
The US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has amended a report into a minor ground incident involving a British Airways aircraft, which had wrongly placed some blame on the flight crew.
The incident involving a Boeing 747 happened at Miami International Airport on December 26, 2006.
After a normal landing the flight crew took the precaution of requesting assistance because the lights guiding aircraft from the runway to the taxiway were unclear.
When airport ground personnel arrived, the flight crew were informed that the aircraft had made contact with two of the ground lights.
The aircraft had not left the runway, no passengers or crew were injured and the aircraft was undamaged.
Tim Steeds, head of safety and security, said: "The original report into the incident placed some of the blame with the BA flight crew. This was incorrect and totally unjustified.
"We raised our concerns immediately with the UK's Air Accidents Investigation Branch. The NTSB has since corrected its report."
The updated report, now published on the NTSB website, makes it clear the incident was caused primarily by inadequate and non-standard lighting on the runway
The US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has amended a report into a minor ground incident involving a British Airways aircraft, which had wrongly placed some blame on the flight crew.
The incident involving a Boeing 747 happened at Miami International Airport on December 26, 2006.
After a normal landing the flight crew took the precaution of requesting assistance because the lights guiding aircraft from the runway to the taxiway were unclear.
When airport ground personnel arrived, the flight crew were informed that the aircraft had made contact with two of the ground lights.
The aircraft had not left the runway, no passengers or crew were injured and the aircraft was undamaged.
Tim Steeds, head of safety and security, said: "The original report into the incident placed some of the blame with the BA flight crew. This was incorrect and totally unjustified.
"We raised our concerns immediately with the UK's Air Accidents Investigation Branch. The NTSB has since corrected its report."
The updated report, now published on the NTSB website, makes it clear the incident was caused primarily by inadequate and non-standard lighting on the runway
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"We raised our concerns immediately with the UK's Air Accidents Investigation Branch. The NTSB has since corrected its report."
The updated report, now published on the NTSB website, makes it clear the incident was caused primarily by inadequate and non-standard lighting on the runway
The updated report, now published on the NTSB website, makes it clear the incident was caused primarily by inadequate and non-standard lighting on the runway
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We raised our concerns immediately with the UK's Air Accidents Investigation Branch. The NTSB has since corrected its report."
Par for the course, I expect.
Odds are, it was a First Officer who was taxiing the airplane...always a large mistake.