F/O 's job got lesser meaning !
Guest
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RAFAT, these are the standards laid down by companies I have worked for, and IF I don't follow them at the designated times, then MY neck will be on the chopping block. However, I'm sure you would agree that it would be looked upon with much interest, if a company were to recommend (that) the lesser experienced pilot be given the responsibilty for controlling it, in a non-normal situation!
As far as flying the aircraft (or monitoring the auto pilot) and undertaking other responsibilities, the terms "delegate" and "chew gum and walk" come to mind.
There can only be ONE commander on the flight deck - even though you might sometimes have two captains flying together - something that the F/O's of today will appreciate, when they become the captains of tomorrow.
As far as flying the aircraft (or monitoring the auto pilot) and undertaking other responsibilities, the terms "delegate" and "chew gum and walk" come to mind.
There can only be ONE commander on the flight deck - even though you might sometimes have two captains flying together - something that the F/O's of today will appreciate, when they become the captains of tomorrow.
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Underdog
It is true about American First Officers not being typerated, I flew Electras with A + C on a U.S. operating certificate and in the right seat we didnot hold a type rating, the
Captain and Flight Engineer were both appropriatly rated. I believe that taken to the extreme the F.O. is "qualified" after 5 unassisted take offs and landings. The company on whose certificate we flew provided considerably more training than that.
It is true about American First Officers not being typerated, I flew Electras with A + C on a U.S. operating certificate and in the right seat we didnot hold a type rating, the
Captain and Flight Engineer were both appropriatly rated. I believe that taken to the extreme the F.O. is "qualified" after 5 unassisted take offs and landings. The company on whose certificate we flew provided considerably more training than that.
Guest
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I agree that if Company SOPs dictate the Captain takes control in non-normal situations, then that is what should happen in that Company, but that does not mean this is right.
I still think that for the Captain to maintain an accurate Command & Control position, ie. gathering information, assessing the situation and deciding the correct course of action, he should not be wasting a large chunk of his valuable capacity flying the aircraft as well.
I still think that for the Captain to maintain an accurate Command & Control position, ie. gathering information, assessing the situation and deciding the correct course of action, he should not be wasting a large chunk of his valuable capacity flying the aircraft as well.
Guest
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Just reading the above and I am split with thoughts. Coming from the superyacht industry, as FO I am trained and encouraged to perform all aspects of the Capts role, as a FO's role is full backup and capable duplication in case of incapacitation on the part of the Capt. It is not only sense but a requirement. As with your professional field (I only fly for pleasure and leisure) how can the FO ever get the real scenario exposure ready for his own probable Command if he or she is never given ample support from the Skipper and SOP? I can understand the high commercial pressures for cost control of insurance premiums etc.. but I would rather be in the left seat knowing that the guy or gal in the right seat is fully competant and confident to carry out all procedures, whether starts, taxi, throttles, rejects and approach to land as a matter of course rather than if its CAVOK wind calm and an extra 5,000 of skid strip just in the FO has a brain fart. Encourage rather than depower your future skipper eh?
Guest
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Remember that the sops are written to cover the lowest common denominator, ie. a newly checked out skipper teamed up with a brand new F/O. Now although probably most companies strive to avoid this pairing, rostering is also subject to human error (god knows - they stuff mine up about every second month).
It's not a slight on the position of First Officer, but something written into the OM's to cover EVERYBODY's backside. One possible solution would be to have a "graded" system for first officers, whereby the guy who has been on the same type within the company for say 3 years, is allowed to operate to a more advanced level than Johnny Newshoes, who has only been checked out for a few months.
Think about it yourselves gents, I'm sure there are individuals you can think of, who have more than the average number of "off" days when flying - and I'm not just referring to F/O's!
It's not a slight on the position of First Officer, but something written into the OM's to cover EVERYBODY's backside. One possible solution would be to have a "graded" system for first officers, whereby the guy who has been on the same type within the company for say 3 years, is allowed to operate to a more advanced level than Johnny Newshoes, who has only been checked out for a few months.
Think about it yourselves gents, I'm sure there are individuals you can think of, who have more than the average number of "off" days when flying - and I'm not just referring to F/O's!
Guest
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Wake up guys---
The Captain is THE designated Commander of the aircraft and the F/O is subordinate, IE: second in command. Hello, do we now comprendo "second"? The CAA says so, FAA says so, who are you so called "captain qualified effos" to say that they are wrong? The Captain signs the dispatch release, the loadsheet and is DESIGNATED by the company as "in charge". Why is this NOT so hard to understand? If these effos have difficulity understanding this simple fact, then their return to ground school is the only option.
Or termination.
The Captain is THE designated Commander of the aircraft and the F/O is subordinate, IE: second in command. Hello, do we now comprendo "second"? The CAA says so, FAA says so, who are you so called "captain qualified effos" to say that they are wrong? The Captain signs the dispatch release, the loadsheet and is DESIGNATED by the company as "in charge". Why is this NOT so hard to understand? If these effos have difficulity understanding this simple fact, then their return to ground school is the only option.
Or termination.
Guest
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Once again, another supreme piece of wisdom from 411A or whatever.
Is there a subject he does not feel qualified to comment on?
In the company I work for the F/O of today is seen as the Capt of tomorrow. The type rating appears on his licence. He operates his sector as P1. Engine start, taxy and thrust lever handling are seen as basic skills to be practised on every handling sector.
Got a problem with that?
Is there a subject he does not feel qualified to comment on?
In the company I work for the F/O of today is seen as the Capt of tomorrow. The type rating appears on his licence. He operates his sector as P1. Engine start, taxy and thrust lever handling are seen as basic skills to be practised on every handling sector.
Got a problem with that?
Guest
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Interesting philosophy 411a, although entirely irrelevant, as nobody has questioned the command of the captain as far as I can see.
In my company we have the 'role-reversal' philosophy, and it works well. The FO makes the decisions on his sector, and the captain gives a diplomatic prompt where required. We also have the monitored approach, so in general, during a non normal the FO would carry out the approach for the captain to land. It lets the captain worry about other things while the FO does the flying. It would seem odd any other way to me. What would the FO do if the captain was doing everything? Nice waste of resources.
As far as 'grading' FO's goes, seems complicated and you don't have to be inexperienced to be c**p. How about grading captains as well? The best way round that issue is to make sure your flightcrew are trained to adequate requirements.I think in most companies the ops manual is the minimum requirements which everyone must meet, not the minimum requirements defined by the worst pilots.
In my company we have the 'role-reversal' philosophy, and it works well. The FO makes the decisions on his sector, and the captain gives a diplomatic prompt where required. We also have the monitored approach, so in general, during a non normal the FO would carry out the approach for the captain to land. It lets the captain worry about other things while the FO does the flying. It would seem odd any other way to me. What would the FO do if the captain was doing everything? Nice waste of resources.
As far as 'grading' FO's goes, seems complicated and you don't have to be inexperienced to be c**p. How about grading captains as well? The best way round that issue is to make sure your flightcrew are trained to adequate requirements.I think in most companies the ops manual is the minimum requirements which everyone must meet, not the minimum requirements defined by the worst pilots.
Guest
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I would NEVER want to fly with a new captain whose only previous flying experience was sitting in the RHS doing exactly what he was told exactly when he was told to do it. You MUST have good hands on experience and the ability to make a decision (true P.1 U/S)without having to be second guessed before you should be eligible for command!
Rant over for now ..............
Rant over for now ..............
Guest
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I can see that many of you have been F/O´s for long time.
Do not forget that in the end of the the day you will end up as Capt.
And when you are faced with the responsability to become a captain on the ship you will chance your mind on this issue.
Let´s say you are coming from a 13 hours flight leg and you are responsible for the flight of very tired crew. Would you want to have to answer for the situation that the F/O was to tired to taxi the aircraft so we for that reason did not exacly hit the gate as ment to be.
Not saying that F/O´s can not taxi the aircraft, but it has all to do with, who is responsible in the end of the day if somthing go´s wrong....
I think it is bad enough to fail on your own, but failing for somone else is worse.
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rgds
ice
Do not forget that in the end of the the day you will end up as Capt.
And when you are faced with the responsability to become a captain on the ship you will chance your mind on this issue.
Let´s say you are coming from a 13 hours flight leg and you are responsible for the flight of very tired crew. Would you want to have to answer for the situation that the F/O was to tired to taxi the aircraft so we for that reason did not exacly hit the gate as ment to be.
Not saying that F/O´s can not taxi the aircraft, but it has all to do with, who is responsible in the end of the day if somthing go´s wrong....
I think it is bad enough to fail on your own, but failing for somone else is worse.
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rgds
ice
Guest
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Whats_it_doing_now?---
Grading Captains? Why yes, it is done all the time....usually called annual line checks (not to be confused with two sim checks per year). And, for the upgrading F/O's, the command course is always used (or should be) for the intended purpose, upgrading to Command. New guys have to jump thru the required hoops, failure to do so results in a return to the RHS. Once they assume command, plenty of time for engine starting, taxi, throttle handling on takeoff, etc. Then they will have to put up with obstinate F/O's who think that they know better.
Overstress---
As this a comment forum, I offered my opinion, like it or not. Some may agree, some may not, their option.
[This message has been edited by 411A (edited 30 May 2001).]
Grading Captains? Why yes, it is done all the time....usually called annual line checks (not to be confused with two sim checks per year). And, for the upgrading F/O's, the command course is always used (or should be) for the intended purpose, upgrading to Command. New guys have to jump thru the required hoops, failure to do so results in a return to the RHS. Once they assume command, plenty of time for engine starting, taxi, throttle handling on takeoff, etc. Then they will have to put up with obstinate F/O's who think that they know better.
Overstress---
As this a comment forum, I offered my opinion, like it or not. Some may agree, some may not, their option.
[This message has been edited by 411A (edited 30 May 2001).]
Guest
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Someone asked how it is on the other side of the pond....
Northwest,(whom I fly for),and all major carriers as well as most regionals regard new-hire pilots as "capt's in training". There is really no distinction in the flightdeck between the Capt. and F/O (effo for 411A) except the obvious one that the Capt. is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.
We swap legs and serve as either the Pilot-Not-Flying or Pilot Flying. When acting as the Pilot-Flying we call for the appropiate checklists and fly the airplane as we see fit; but we fly within the guidlines specified in our Flight Operations manuals. That way there are no surprises.
There are a few exceptions like CAT2/CAT3 landings but we always fly these app's so the Capt. can be looking outside before he/she lands. I prefer the autoland feature. As far as taxiing the aircraft--We are allowed to do it but who wants it?! We also tend to fly all the way to landing during emergencies if we happened to be the PF at the time the emergency occurred.
The Capt. always has the authority to designate who is going to do what, but thankfully there are VERY few out there that feel it incumbent upon themselves to run the WHOLE show.
Northwest,(whom I fly for),and all major carriers as well as most regionals regard new-hire pilots as "capt's in training". There is really no distinction in the flightdeck between the Capt. and F/O (effo for 411A) except the obvious one that the Capt. is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.
We swap legs and serve as either the Pilot-Not-Flying or Pilot Flying. When acting as the Pilot-Flying we call for the appropiate checklists and fly the airplane as we see fit; but we fly within the guidlines specified in our Flight Operations manuals. That way there are no surprises.
There are a few exceptions like CAT2/CAT3 landings but we always fly these app's so the Capt. can be looking outside before he/she lands. I prefer the autoland feature. As far as taxiing the aircraft--We are allowed to do it but who wants it?! We also tend to fly all the way to landing during emergencies if we happened to be the PF at the time the emergency occurred.
The Capt. always has the authority to designate who is going to do what, but thankfully there are VERY few out there that feel it incumbent upon themselves to run the WHOLE show.
Guest
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In an ideal world I would hope that the Captain did walk round, cockpit setup, engine start, taxiing, handling duties and non-handling duties in both normal and emergency situations and put his/her ass on the line by signing for eveything.....that way I can get on with mingling with the hosties whilst reading the paper and enjoying my crew meal in the first class cabin.
I think the Captain should do everything, they get paid enough!!
Harmonious Harry
I think the Captain should do everything, they get paid enough!!
Harmonious Harry
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First of all, I must apologise profusely for being a wannabe.
Secondly, what happens if the capt. snuffs it for real and the FO has to land the plane and bring it to a safe controlled halt but the airline have not given him the luxury of a tiller?
Thirdly, Is it fair to conclude from all this that there are newly qualified American captains with no hands-on flying experience since the ink dried on their ATPL 10 years previously?
A concerned and slightly disillusioned Pie.
Secondly, what happens if the capt. snuffs it for real and the FO has to land the plane and bring it to a safe controlled halt but the airline have not given him the luxury of a tiller?
Thirdly, Is it fair to conclude from all this that there are newly qualified American captains with no hands-on flying experience since the ink dried on their ATPL 10 years previously?
A concerned and slightly disillusioned Pie.
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PieLander--
I think you missed the point...
F/O's for all major carriers over here have to perform to the same exact standards that Capt's do during initial and recurrent training; including decision-making abilities.
Rest assured that if a Capt. croaked while in flight, you would hear the F/O say, "Get this fat, dead bastard out of my seat!" followed by an uneventful landing at the nearest airport.
P.S. Yes it is possible to land and stop without the aid of a tiller....
I think you missed the point...
F/O's for all major carriers over here have to perform to the same exact standards that Capt's do during initial and recurrent training; including decision-making abilities.
Rest assured that if a Capt. croaked while in flight, you would hear the F/O say, "Get this fat, dead bastard out of my seat!" followed by an uneventful landing at the nearest airport.
P.S. Yes it is possible to land and stop without the aid of a tiller....
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ManagedNav
I appreciate that that's how it should be, and it sounds like your outfit has got it right, but the theme of this thread seems to be the fact that some airlines seem to think otherwise. If this is the case, then how are FO's supposed to acquire the experience necessary to slide comfortably into the left hand seat after a few years of 'watching the other bloke do it'?
Pie
I appreciate that that's how it should be, and it sounds like your outfit has got it right, but the theme of this thread seems to be the fact that some airlines seem to think otherwise. If this is the case, then how are FO's supposed to acquire the experience necessary to slide comfortably into the left hand seat after a few years of 'watching the other bloke do it'?
Pie
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ManagedNav.....
In my time I've met some very small cockpits, very large Captains, and some very slender Hosties. I was just trying to imagine all three of those negotiating the first officer into the LHS!
Seriously though. If you did have to land the a/c due captain incapacitation and did not have tiller then Ok, you could land and stop the a/c safely. However how do you get the thing clear of the runway and over to the terminal. The rudders wont provide that sort of manouver. And one would have thought if medical assistance is required then the quickest way would be to park the thing near the terminal!
In my time I've met some very small cockpits, very large Captains, and some very slender Hosties. I was just trying to imagine all three of those negotiating the first officer into the LHS!
Seriously though. If you did have to land the a/c due captain incapacitation and did not have tiller then Ok, you could land and stop the a/c safely. However how do you get the thing clear of the runway and over to the terminal. The rudders wont provide that sort of manouver. And one would have thought if medical assistance is required then the quickest way would be to park the thing near the terminal!
Guest
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Just why would your experience in "starting engines" and "taxiing" make you more comfortable in the LHS??
That has absolutely nothing to do with being a "commander".
Some mechanics are allowed to start engines and taxi around - Does that qualify them for being CPs?
The CP is ALWAYS the last to decide.
If he´s smart he´ll ask you for your opinion or ideas and tell you what he thinks, and he´ll let you plan and fly your approaches, but in the end he has the FINAL word, be it only for LEGAL reasons.
Looking how the "good" CPs do it, and trying to put yourself in their shoes, will get you further, than driving the plane around some congested airport.
And the CP wants to fly ALL sectors - so what!! I´ll ask him why, support him the best I can, but I definitely won´t argue about it.
Please get over it.
C´mon guys it´s summer, think about things a little more important, such as driving to the beach - in a car.
That has absolutely nothing to do with being a "commander".
Some mechanics are allowed to start engines and taxi around - Does that qualify them for being CPs?
The CP is ALWAYS the last to decide.
If he´s smart he´ll ask you for your opinion or ideas and tell you what he thinks, and he´ll let you plan and fly your approaches, but in the end he has the FINAL word, be it only for LEGAL reasons.
Looking how the "good" CPs do it, and trying to put yourself in their shoes, will get you further, than driving the plane around some congested airport.
And the CP wants to fly ALL sectors - so what!! I´ll ask him why, support him the best I can, but I definitely won´t argue about it.
Please get over it.
C´mon guys it´s summer, think about things a little more important, such as driving to the beach - in a car.
Guest
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Blue ice,
At the end of a long sector, if I was too tired to taxi or do anything else for that matter, I'd say so. I would expect a responsible Captain to do the same.
If 411A (superflyguy, move aside I'm in charge!) happened to be the Captain, God help us all!!!
At the end of a long sector, if I was too tired to taxi or do anything else for that matter, I'd say so. I would expect a responsible Captain to do the same.
If 411A (superflyguy, move aside I'm in charge!) happened to be the Captain, God help us all!!!