American MD80 taxied 2 slowly for management, Capt. suspended
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ANZ Ops say that an aircraft can't taxi faster than 5 knots until entering the maneouvering area. i think..
If the walking man is Chuck Norris, then we're all screwed! hah.
If the walking man is Chuck Norris, then we're all screwed! hah.
High taxi speeds, (above 30kts), along with the obvious risks, result in high bead temperatures,
The braking technique, 30 to 10kts, is an airbus recommended technique and works very well. The procedure came about with carbon brakes whereby brake wear is primarily determined by the number of applications. Less wear takes place once the brakes are at a reasonable temperature and this is achieved by the above technique.
For the sceptics, I dont advocate 30 kts on a twisty, bumpy taxi way, and believe it or not, we even consider the cabin crew when we taxi!!
Last edited by kick the tires; 11th Sep 2008 at 10:16.
FX Guru
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As SLF, whatever the rights and wrongs of this incident, what about the pilot who used his mobile to report the incident?
There are threads galore on this forum about using mobiles on a plane. Passengers are (rightly) removed from aircraft for doing so.
And yet here is someone who should know better who is quite blatantly breaking the rules. Why should pax not use mobiles if pilots can?
I hate mobiles and have never used one on, or near, a plane. But the actions of this guy surely undermine the argument that they can be dangerous on a plane.
There are threads galore on this forum about using mobiles on a plane. Passengers are (rightly) removed from aircraft for doing so.
And yet here is someone who should know better who is quite blatantly breaking the rules. Why should pax not use mobiles if pilots can?
I hate mobiles and have never used one on, or near, a plane. But the actions of this guy surely undermine the argument that they can be dangerous on a plane.
Union Goon
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The really funny thing, is both aircraft in question did not have a gate waiting for them.
So the chief pilot involved who used his cellphone, was rushing, just so that he could go sit somewhere waiting for a gate! That is something pax REALLY hate. As long as the airplane is moving they feel like they are still getting somewhere, but to sit in a penalty box waiting for a gate drives em CRAZY!
In January we were told by management to SLOW DOWN. As an airline we were taxiing too fast. So go figure.
So far, we have learned that the chief pilot in question was a menace to public safety, AND was not doing a good job to serve his own passengers.
Cheers
Wino
So the chief pilot involved who used his cellphone, was rushing, just so that he could go sit somewhere waiting for a gate! That is something pax REALLY hate. As long as the airplane is moving they feel like they are still getting somewhere, but to sit in a penalty box waiting for a gate drives em CRAZY!
In January we were told by management to SLOW DOWN. As an airline we were taxiing too fast. So go figure.
So far, we have learned that the chief pilot in question was a menace to public safety, AND was not doing a good job to serve his own passengers.
Cheers
Wino
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I think if I was the LAX pilot, my response to it all would have been to file a formal complaint with the FAA about breach of safety by the management pilot. Probably a career-limiting move though, so it's a good job it wasn't me.
Man in glass cockpit shouldn't throw stones...
Man in glass cockpit shouldn't throw stones...
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Taxi at walking speed is what I used to teach in piston singles to new students who were still trying to turn on the ground with the yoke, were not used to brake asymmetry, and had never had wings and wingtips to worry about. I agree, it may be a bit over the top when you have to taxi 10,000 feet for takeoff, five times a day, and on a schedule in a jet. More than 5 knots but less than V1 sounds like a good rule of thumb!
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If I may pop my head up and ask - as frequent AA SLF always trying to gain a better understanding of what goes on up front - what is the benefit of taxiing slowly?
Apologies if I shouldn't be asking questions here.
Apologies if I shouldn't be asking questions here.
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(Tongue partly in cheek.)
Benefit of taxiing slowly? Takes longer to get there!
Seriously though, there are several situations where taxiing slowly is advised.
On icy or contaminated surfaces.
To provide separation from aircraft ahead to avoid blowback and refreeze of snow or other precip.
Near other aircraft or obstructions.
In poor visibility.
Etc, etc.
In other words, when common sense and good airmanship indicate.
Of course there have been some stories of crew taxiing slowly to send a message to management on a particular issue.
Benefit of taxiing slowly? Takes longer to get there!
Seriously though, there are several situations where taxiing slowly is advised.
On icy or contaminated surfaces.
To provide separation from aircraft ahead to avoid blowback and refreeze of snow or other precip.
Near other aircraft or obstructions.
In poor visibility.
Etc, etc.
In other words, when common sense and good airmanship indicate.
Of course there have been some stories of crew taxiing slowly to send a message to management on a particular issue.
Psychophysiological entity
Heck, if I'd had someone taxiing in front of me at 5mph, I would have tried to overtake them on the first bend.
Now that the GPS will tell us our ground speed, surely, there must be a reasonable maximum speed for a given type. Get behind a slower type, and despite one's enthusiasm, that would be the new datum.
And as for the phone. Try offering to taxi for a skipper going back to the pan while pouring then drinking a double double scotch, and being told to keep yer hands off the tiller when he veered to the edge. CRM? Dodging the captain's fist was CRM in those days. And that was one of the London airports and a shiny new jet. A mere phone call seems fairly innocuous apart from the attitude of the man doing it in the first place.
Now that the GPS will tell us our ground speed, surely, there must be a reasonable maximum speed for a given type. Get behind a slower type, and despite one's enthusiasm, that would be the new datum.
And as for the phone. Try offering to taxi for a skipper going back to the pan while pouring then drinking a double double scotch, and being told to keep yer hands off the tiller when he veered to the edge. CRM? Dodging the captain's fist was CRM in those days. And that was one of the London airports and a shiny new jet. A mere phone call seems fairly innocuous apart from the attitude of the man doing it in the first place.
" as frequent AA SLF always trying to gain a better understanding of what goes on up front - what is the benefit of taxiing slowly?
"
"
From the driver seat up front, despite having nearly totally flat terrain for 2KM in every direction, when you couple checklists, radio communications, performance data checks, generally poor visibility aft of your shoulders, time zone changes and fatigue, I still amazed when I find myself suddenly near a B747-400 or A340-600 and thinking to myself "where it the **** did he come from? "
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>> Man in glass cockpit shouldn't throw stones...
haha!!
The management pilot should be written up for use of a mobile phone whilst in control of an aircraft. Was he taxiing it at the time?
The Captain taxiing slowly could have had any number of reasons he was taxiing slow. It seems to me that the management pilot is looking to kiss some a$$ to try and either get a promotion or a pay rise.
ECAM Actions.
haha!!
The management pilot should be written up for use of a mobile phone whilst in control of an aircraft. Was he taxiing it at the time?
The Captain taxiing slowly could have had any number of reasons he was taxiing slow. It seems to me that the management pilot is looking to kiss some a$$ to try and either get a promotion or a pay rise.
ECAM Actions.
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Aircraft must have better rubber these days. In the 70s, and 80s, you sure didn't want to be taxiing at 30kts out to the "Reef" Runway at PHNL. You'd blow all the tires on take-off. We were "limited" to 15kts on the way out there.
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If I may pop my head up and ask - as frequent AA SLF always trying to gain a better understanding of what goes on up front - what is the benefit of taxiing slowly?
Apologies if I shouldn't be asking questions here.
********************************************************
Reply -
In this case the gate was occupied. It's like racing to a red light, what's the point since you'll have to wait anyway?
Apologies if I shouldn't be asking questions here.
********************************************************
Reply -
In this case the gate was occupied. It's like racing to a red light, what's the point since you'll have to wait anyway?
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First off, management pilots, sometimes known as chief pilots, mainly do paperwork. there are two kinds of pilots, some are good at flying and rotten at paperwork, others are great at paperwork and rotten are flying...rarely do you have both...though some are rotten at paperwork and flying!
now:
why taxi slow?
flight attendants might fall down if you taxi too fast and then suddenly have to stop! lots of paperwork involved, ergo a good pilot doesn't taxi fast.
airplanes are quite good at turning in the sky...on the ground they are just fair.
long taxis at high speeds with frequent braking can increase the heat of the tires and the brakes...on takeoff the brakes might not be cool enough for a maximum effort aborted (rejected) takeoff. cool brakes are good, hot brakes are bad. using alot of brakes on landing and taxi in, can still effect the next takeoff if it is soon after landing. good pilots know this.
and the big one...IF YOU TAXI FAST and can't stop in time to avoid a collision, you might be dead. especially while crossing a runway...though sometimes ATC makes you "expedite" across the runway to make traffic flow.
And sometimes pilots are pissed off about having a pay cut of 50percent for 7 years and want to make mangement suffer.
BUT, American, once a great airline, has mangement / labor problems. shame on management!
now:
why taxi slow?
flight attendants might fall down if you taxi too fast and then suddenly have to stop! lots of paperwork involved, ergo a good pilot doesn't taxi fast.
airplanes are quite good at turning in the sky...on the ground they are just fair.
long taxis at high speeds with frequent braking can increase the heat of the tires and the brakes...on takeoff the brakes might not be cool enough for a maximum effort aborted (rejected) takeoff. cool brakes are good, hot brakes are bad. using alot of brakes on landing and taxi in, can still effect the next takeoff if it is soon after landing. good pilots know this.
and the big one...IF YOU TAXI FAST and can't stop in time to avoid a collision, you might be dead. especially while crossing a runway...though sometimes ATC makes you "expedite" across the runway to make traffic flow.
And sometimes pilots are pissed off about having a pay cut of 50percent for 7 years and want to make mangement suffer.
BUT, American, once a great airline, has mangement / labor problems. shame on management!
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The braking technique, 30 to 10kts, is an airbus recommended technique and works very well
I hate to taxi behind such a technician, just imagine a few busses in line doing this stunt each one at its preferred moment.
" ... catering: please have supplementary sick-bags for uplift at our destination ... "
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Wino is correct. We've been told to be careful taxiing, as flight attendants have had some injuries during taxi w/i the last year. Further, management has attempted to counter union information, by making it sound that the Captain actually caused a safety hazard. Apparently, an aircraft was cleared into position and hold (line up and wait), and the management Captain (#2 to be cleared to cross the runway) claims his crew and passenger's safety was compromised. They're hanging their hat on the supposed violation of the runway incursion statement in our FOM.
It's all quite silly, as we're NOW supposed to be responsible for the aircraft BEHIND us!! Yeah right- other than not blowing them too hard w/ thrust - I think not. If Captain Osborne (mngmnt) felt his crew/pax were in danger, he should have held short and told tower. Instead, he violates a Federal Aviation Regulation, and calls his fellow chief pilots, who show up at the other Captain's gate and remove him from his sequence.
As mentioned- during contract negotations- hostages WILL be taken.
This is definitely one. They continue to attempt a diversion/depletion of APA's attention and resources and will- with hostage taking and violating contractual provisions that we already own, hoping union concessions will follow in order to get them back.
Typical immoral, union-busting management techniques.
So far, APA is NOT interested in negotiating against ourself. That's a good thing.
KC135777
It's all quite silly, as we're NOW supposed to be responsible for the aircraft BEHIND us!! Yeah right- other than not blowing them too hard w/ thrust - I think not. If Captain Osborne (mngmnt) felt his crew/pax were in danger, he should have held short and told tower. Instead, he violates a Federal Aviation Regulation, and calls his fellow chief pilots, who show up at the other Captain's gate and remove him from his sequence.
As mentioned- during contract negotations- hostages WILL be taken.
This is definitely one. They continue to attempt a diversion/depletion of APA's attention and resources and will- with hostage taking and violating contractual provisions that we already own, hoping union concessions will follow in order to get them back.
Typical immoral, union-busting management techniques.
So far, APA is NOT interested in negotiating against ourself. That's a good thing.
KC135777
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Taxi Speed
The most important word is APPROPRIATE. There all sorts of considerations that affect "appropriate" including cabin crew, aircraft weight, surface conditions, congestion, taxiway width / camber, distance to taxi, carbon or steel brakes? So taxiing at anywhere from 5 knots to around 30 knots could be appropriate under varying circumstances. Turning off a cold, wet HST scares the hell out of me .... aircraft tyres are designed for going in straight lines and not around corners!
FCTM states: "The appropriate taxi speed depends on turn radius and surface
condition.Taxi speed should be closely monitored during taxi out, particularly when the
active runway is some distance from the departure gate. Normal taxi speed is
approximately 20 knots, adjusted for conditions. On long straight taxi routes,
speeds up to 30 knots are acceptable, however at speeds greater than 20 knots use
caution when using the nose wheel steering tiller to avoid overcontrolling the nose
wheels. When approaching a turn, speed should be slowed to an appropriate speed
for conditions. On a dry surface, use approximately 10 knots for turn angles
greater than those typically required for high speed runway turnoffs.
Note: High taxi speed combined with heavy gross weight and a long taxi distance
can result in tire sidewall overheating. At maximum weights with taxiing
distances greater than 4500 meters, use 20 knots as maximum taxi speed."
FCTM states: "The appropriate taxi speed depends on turn radius and surface
condition.Taxi speed should be closely monitored during taxi out, particularly when the
active runway is some distance from the departure gate. Normal taxi speed is
approximately 20 knots, adjusted for conditions. On long straight taxi routes,
speeds up to 30 knots are acceptable, however at speeds greater than 20 knots use
caution when using the nose wheel steering tiller to avoid overcontrolling the nose
wheels. When approaching a turn, speed should be slowed to an appropriate speed
for conditions. On a dry surface, use approximately 10 knots for turn angles
greater than those typically required for high speed runway turnoffs.
Note: High taxi speed combined with heavy gross weight and a long taxi distance
can result in tire sidewall overheating. At maximum weights with taxiing
distances greater than 4500 meters, use 20 knots as maximum taxi speed."
I was originally taught that taxi speed varies exponentially as one's distance from the CFI's office!
It all depends on the situation but I have never seen the point of fast taxi speeds when you are running early. Also sensible taxi speeds give you more thinking time.
As a passenger I have always said I can tell a lot about the pilot by the way in which the a/c is taxied to the holding point.
It all depends on the situation but I have never seen the point of fast taxi speeds when you are running early. Also sensible taxi speeds give you more thinking time.
As a passenger I have always said I can tell a lot about the pilot by the way in which the a/c is taxied to the holding point.