Delta Ab Initio Program Targets Women and Minorities
SkyGod
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I agree with one of the above posters:
If aviation and a flying career was so important, why wait till it is handed to you on a silver platter?
It was always available, just not for free.
Why is it that white males have to work hard AND get to the bottom of the priority list?
(Even pay for flight school)
If aviation and a flying career was so important, why wait till it is handed to you on a silver platter?
It was always available, just not for free.
Why is it that white males have to work hard AND get to the bottom of the priority list?
(Even pay for flight school)
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Cyclops -
US Major airlines don't need to have 200 hour copilots flying heavy jets like BA et al. There are more than enough well qualified and well experienced pilots standing in line. 200 hour copilots in airliners is just plain wrong. That is not as safe as it needs to be AND it is unnecessary. The US military does it, but then it has a very strict training program that typically washes out at least a third of a group of the previously screened candidates - probably much more tightly screened than Delta is doing - unless you use skin color and dominant homones as the criteria. After that, those pilots are in a tightly-knit squadron environment where they are supervised, constantly trained in simulators and inflight and monitored by the same people all the time - NOT a different captain every time they go to fly and probably NEVER seeing any such thing as a chief pilot or some such supervisor.
That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.
US Major airlines don't need to have 200 hour copilots flying heavy jets like BA et al. There are more than enough well qualified and well experienced pilots standing in line. 200 hour copilots in airliners is just plain wrong. That is not as safe as it needs to be AND it is unnecessary. The US military does it, but then it has a very strict training program that typically washes out at least a third of a group of the previously screened candidates - probably much more tightly screened than Delta is doing - unless you use skin color and dominant homones as the criteria. After that, those pilots are in a tightly-knit squadron environment where they are supervised, constantly trained in simulators and inflight and monitored by the same people all the time - NOT a different captain every time they go to fly and probably NEVER seeing any such thing as a chief pilot or some such supervisor.
That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.
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Partyreptile,
I am doing my second degree at WMU but I am too experienced for the ab initio program
Cyclops,
Well said.
Roadtrip,
Cyclops is absolutely right.
I am not sure about the majors but the regionals seems to be hurting for pilots. Delta cadets will not be going to Delta main line directly, but the subsdiaries first, Comair and ASA. probably flying the EMB 120s before upgrading to the RJs.
Just like BA or EK, these cadets will be trained very well. And I am sure if BA was not satisfied by the quality of the training that their cadets receive, they wouldn't be sending the 8th speedbirds to WMU. Delta must have put that into consideration before dumping $$$$$$$ to such a program.
Comair and ASA have been hiring people with low hours for a while(even before becoming whole Delta). Especially if you went to Flight Safety or Comair Academy.
Now most of the attention seems to be at WMU. Mesaba usually come to WMU and interview WMU grads, most of them CFIs at the college with less than 1000 total time, White males or not White males.
COEX and PSA requires even lower hours for WMU flight program grads.
As for people who don't understand Delta reasoning for the program, there are some programs that give scholarships to men as well here in the US. At my first college, male nursing students were given scholarship to attend the nursing program because they were non traditional. I got some because I was doing my A&P(AME). It goes both ways.
I don't think Delta is denying anybody a chance, but rather giving someone a chance.
I am sorry if I am offending anybody here. These are just my opinions, I am just a very optimistic person. I work as hard and sacrifice as much to build my hours just like some of you. There is no doubt that I would have applied for the Delta program if it would have happen at the right time for me. But, that doesn't give me an excuse to take out on the cadets who got their way paid for.
I am doing my second degree at WMU but I am too experienced for the ab initio program
Cyclops,
Well said.
Roadtrip,
Cyclops is absolutely right.
I am not sure about the majors but the regionals seems to be hurting for pilots. Delta cadets will not be going to Delta main line directly, but the subsdiaries first, Comair and ASA. probably flying the EMB 120s before upgrading to the RJs.
Just like BA or EK, these cadets will be trained very well. And I am sure if BA was not satisfied by the quality of the training that their cadets receive, they wouldn't be sending the 8th speedbirds to WMU. Delta must have put that into consideration before dumping $$$$$$$ to such a program.
Comair and ASA have been hiring people with low hours for a while(even before becoming whole Delta). Especially if you went to Flight Safety or Comair Academy.
Now most of the attention seems to be at WMU. Mesaba usually come to WMU and interview WMU grads, most of them CFIs at the college with less than 1000 total time, White males or not White males.
COEX and PSA requires even lower hours for WMU flight program grads.
As for people who don't understand Delta reasoning for the program, there are some programs that give scholarships to men as well here in the US. At my first college, male nursing students were given scholarship to attend the nursing program because they were non traditional. I got some because I was doing my A&P(AME). It goes both ways.
I don't think Delta is denying anybody a chance, but rather giving someone a chance.
I am sorry if I am offending anybody here. These are just my opinions, I am just a very optimistic person. I work as hard and sacrifice as much to build my hours just like some of you. There is no doubt that I would have applied for the Delta program if it would have happen at the right time for me. But, that doesn't give me an excuse to take out on the cadets who got their way paid for.
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lets cut the polite P.C. crap. The simple fact is that in this case, Delta has decided that it is more important to push a group of under/unqualified individuals that consist of "minorities" in order to trumpet their p.r. instead of putting the safety of their passengers first. It is just that simple. There is NO shortage of HIGHLY qualified pilots in the U.S., this is due to the flying conditions here that all in the industry are well aware of. Simply because the vast majority of people in airline mgt. turn a blind eye to the ongoing problems of targeting selected groups for jobs in order to appear more "sensitive" to the new multicultural boondoggle does not mean that there is no problem, just take a look at the United 747-400 incident in SFO. An open secret at United, with the lucky result that no one was killed. You cannot compensate for little or no experience.
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Airlines hire people who happen to be pilots. This fact seems to be ignored by everybody. The ideal is a 5000 hr. nice guy new hire. The next best thing I guess depends on your view. A 5000 hr. jerk or a 300 hr. nice guy? Personally I can see it both ways but I think that airlines find it easier to train people to a set of standards, rather than fix attitudes.
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The fact is that 5000 hr "jerks" don't get hired and the fact that you have 300 hours doesn't mean you're a nice guy/gal. Having flown heavy jets for several years in the civilian industry, I've only flown with one guy that I considered a jerk (but was a good pilot). I'd say that's pretty good screening on the part of the airline recruiters. If these people that Delta wants to hire are so good then they ought to compete fairly with everybody else. I stand by my statement that it's a cheap PC PR gimick that is "pre-destined" to "succeed" - just like UAL's preferential hiring - albeit the truth is otherwise.
Ramrise -You can't fix "attitudes" or personality disorders with training. That is all a baloney smokescreen.
mwashi - Would it be ok with you if an airline had ab initio scholarships for white anglo-saxon males only? . . . I didn't think so.
[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
Ramrise -You can't fix "attitudes" or personality disorders with training. That is all a baloney smokescreen.
mwashi - Would it be ok with you if an airline had ab initio scholarships for white anglo-saxon males only? . . . I didn't think so.
[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
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This is 2001, not 1961. The professional flightdeck has been open to anyone and everyone for many years. Anyone who's got what it takes and is willing to sacrifice for several years as an "intern" making little money while you hone your craft and gain experience has had a shot. This reverse discrimination has got to stop. No woman nowadays has been forced to stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. And no African American alive has been a slave. For many years the Equal Opportunity movement has attempted to offset past wrongs but none of those getting the handouts were wronged. They're descendants of those wronged. They, themselves, have had ample opportunity to excel. If Delta(and lord knows United) wants to hand out scholarships to their flight training program they should open it up to all. All you P.C.types can hammer me now!
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Brad737 ]
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Brad737 ]
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Roadtrip
Where have you been all your life?
There was an ab initio for the anglo-saxon white males, the military.
Do you know most of US major airline pilots are ex-military pilots? Are you mad at them as well because all their flight training and hours were paid by your tax money?
Is your problem the fact that these cadets will be working for Delta with less than 300 hours? Or, that they are women and minority?
Do you have children? A daughter may be? How would you feel if she wants to follow your footsteps and got accepted in the Delta program? Would you tell her "no honey, you can't have your way paid for. You must work as hard as I did............".
If you are that kind of a father, I feel for your children.
Where have you been all your life?
There was an ab initio for the anglo-saxon white males, the military.
Do you know most of US major airline pilots are ex-military pilots? Are you mad at them as well because all their flight training and hours were paid by your tax money?
Is your problem the fact that these cadets will be working for Delta with less than 300 hours? Or, that they are women and minority?
Do you have children? A daughter may be? How would you feel if she wants to follow your footsteps and got accepted in the Delta program? Would you tell her "no honey, you can't have your way paid for. You must work as hard as I did............".
If you are that kind of a father, I feel for your children.
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You better believe that more than one corp ceo is reading this thread and wondering about his/her next airline flight. Your youngster will have one hell of a time delivering all the slf in the same shape they boarded if #1 vapor-locks. Keep it up all you far 121's, all you're doing is selling more corporate airplanes and providing the jobs that go along. BTW, even UA is planning to launch a frax program. Where the hell are they going to hire pilots for 95,000 US (includes fringes and makes paychecks around $65,000 US) for all the airplanes they ordered. Check out the latest AIN (AINONLINE.COM, issue 7/01 p. 112) for this data. THANK YOU united airlines for providing even more job security for me and my mates. I can't wait to see what your alpa employees have to say about your hiring 737 pilots for your biz jet charters at that rate. -CY
Whew: what a can of worms! Partyreptile and Brad 737,among others, hit the nail on the head.
Some personal observations, after a bit of off-the-wall info. The US military has trained ladies to be pilots for over 20 years. This, along with civilian flying, has often led to airline jobs. They can now have equal access to fighters/attack/rec/ASW/ planes: which can result in a horrible POW camp if shot down and unable to be rescued. But many of your sisters, daughters fought for many years for the job opportunity. Nothing implied here, just factual.
My lady FOs have the same backgrounds and hours as the guys and do just as good a job in the cockpit-read that again if anyone chooses to read something into the previous paragraph: i.e. ladies with seven years on the Saab 340 at Am. Eagle, Learjet Chief Pilot, regional and DC-9 hours, T-38 IP (she also flew the C-5, now is Aircraft Commander in Reserves), C-141 Stan Eval before Lear based at Ramstein AFB, Germany. This is very competitive experience, even more so in certain cases. Similar experience should not attract any complaints. I've never had anything against lady pilots or I would say so right here. If there are any ego hang-ups, I've not seen it yet-it can also happen with guys.
What bothers so many pilots is that United (maybe many others) was forced to comply with a court order, which forced United to exclude many pilots having 3000-8000+ hours in favor of certain preferred "categories", many of whom had 300-500 hours etc, at least from what I've heard. Good gosh, after working as 727 FE, just how do such very inexperienced pilots pass IOE as a 737 FO thru intensely busy airspace? If they can learn to keep ahead of the plane and anticipate what ATC and the weather might throw at them, then they are very, very good. I have nothing against them personally (and sympathize with the possible anguish of many, who require so many extra hours of IOE: fifty, or a hundred... extra hours, before release to "line-flying" is possible?), but I doubt that United's upper mgmt is concerned about the success of the new pilots-the quotas have been filled.
A judicial process was allowed to override safety concerns and competitive hiring. If pilots, for the type of flying (transport vs mostly tng jet/attack/rec/fighter/ASW), compete with about the same experience, that is fair competition. If hiring could be with an open mind, based on equal experience, then who needs ethnic/gender categories on an application form?
Just for sake of comparison regarding total hours, however relevant to airline flying or not: years ago, all Air Force Pilots who received their wings went straight to operational tng, on transports, tankers, bombers, tactical or trainer jets etc. But in those days, they all had centerline-thrust restrictions until qulified in their "line flying" plane. Most had no training to go "jump in" any plane unless it was center-line thrust only.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
Some personal observations, after a bit of off-the-wall info. The US military has trained ladies to be pilots for over 20 years. This, along with civilian flying, has often led to airline jobs. They can now have equal access to fighters/attack/rec/ASW/ planes: which can result in a horrible POW camp if shot down and unable to be rescued. But many of your sisters, daughters fought for many years for the job opportunity. Nothing implied here, just factual.
My lady FOs have the same backgrounds and hours as the guys and do just as good a job in the cockpit-read that again if anyone chooses to read something into the previous paragraph: i.e. ladies with seven years on the Saab 340 at Am. Eagle, Learjet Chief Pilot, regional and DC-9 hours, T-38 IP (she also flew the C-5, now is Aircraft Commander in Reserves), C-141 Stan Eval before Lear based at Ramstein AFB, Germany. This is very competitive experience, even more so in certain cases. Similar experience should not attract any complaints. I've never had anything against lady pilots or I would say so right here. If there are any ego hang-ups, I've not seen it yet-it can also happen with guys.
What bothers so many pilots is that United (maybe many others) was forced to comply with a court order, which forced United to exclude many pilots having 3000-8000+ hours in favor of certain preferred "categories", many of whom had 300-500 hours etc, at least from what I've heard. Good gosh, after working as 727 FE, just how do such very inexperienced pilots pass IOE as a 737 FO thru intensely busy airspace? If they can learn to keep ahead of the plane and anticipate what ATC and the weather might throw at them, then they are very, very good. I have nothing against them personally (and sympathize with the possible anguish of many, who require so many extra hours of IOE: fifty, or a hundred... extra hours, before release to "line-flying" is possible?), but I doubt that United's upper mgmt is concerned about the success of the new pilots-the quotas have been filled.
A judicial process was allowed to override safety concerns and competitive hiring. If pilots, for the type of flying (transport vs mostly tng jet/attack/rec/fighter/ASW), compete with about the same experience, that is fair competition. If hiring could be with an open mind, based on equal experience, then who needs ethnic/gender categories on an application form?
Just for sake of comparison regarding total hours, however relevant to airline flying or not: years ago, all Air Force Pilots who received their wings went straight to operational tng, on transports, tankers, bombers, tactical or trainer jets etc. But in those days, they all had centerline-thrust restrictions until qulified in their "line flying" plane. Most had no training to go "jump in" any plane unless it was center-line thrust only.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Roadtrip,
it's correct that having 300 hrs. doesn't necessarily mean that one is a nice guy. My point was that PEOPLE get hired, they want a person, not just a logbook. And an ab initio program is designed for people who do not have the hours, yet. But of course ,generally speaking, the more experience you have the better. And the airlines prefer it that way as it is cheaper for them.
My use of the word jerk by the way was probably somewhat misleading. A person may be considered "unfit" by a company for a number of reasons.
it's correct that having 300 hrs. doesn't necessarily mean that one is a nice guy. My point was that PEOPLE get hired, they want a person, not just a logbook. And an ab initio program is designed for people who do not have the hours, yet. But of course ,generally speaking, the more experience you have the better. And the airlines prefer it that way as it is cheaper for them.
My use of the word jerk by the way was probably somewhat misleading. A person may be considered "unfit" by a company for a number of reasons.
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mwashi -
Where have I been all my life? Oh my gosh, all over aviation and the world as a matter of fact. Military, civilian, fast jets, civil transports, light aircraft. Copilot to instructor pilot and evaluator. Never crop dusted though, but it looks like hard work but fun.
As a matter of fact none of my children show any interest in aviation. Just as I would not want my daughter having the "free-ride" stigma because of her gender, I wouldn't want my son to be denied the opportunity solely because of his genes.
In case you suffer from low blood pressure read my words again --
That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.
Ramrise - People with logbooks are people too. They're people with a track record. Past performance is a good predictor of future success. People with logbooks usually have aviation work histories with recommendations from others in the industry. If companies are forced into ab initio programs to fill the ranks, then they ought to be fair and impartial and based on merit criteria - not genes and gender. I hope someone sues the hell out of DAL for it's blatant discrimination.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
Where have I been all my life? Oh my gosh, all over aviation and the world as a matter of fact. Military, civilian, fast jets, civil transports, light aircraft. Copilot to instructor pilot and evaluator. Never crop dusted though, but it looks like hard work but fun.
As a matter of fact none of my children show any interest in aviation. Just as I would not want my daughter having the "free-ride" stigma because of her gender, I wouldn't want my son to be denied the opportunity solely because of his genes.
In case you suffer from low blood pressure read my words again --
That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.
Ramrise - People with logbooks are people too. They're people with a track record. Past performance is a good predictor of future success. People with logbooks usually have aviation work histories with recommendations from others in the industry. If companies are forced into ab initio programs to fill the ranks, then they ought to be fair and impartial and based on merit criteria - not genes and gender. I hope someone sues the hell out of DAL for it's blatant discrimination.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
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Roadtrip,
you're right. Nobody should have an advantage because of gender or ethnic background. I think that I might have read this thread wrong, the main focus was not on ab initio programs per say, but on affirmative action and this particular ab initio program. In that case we agree totally, advantages gained because of gender or ethnic background are bogus.
you're right. Nobody should have an advantage because of gender or ethnic background. I think that I might have read this thread wrong, the main focus was not on ab initio programs per say, but on affirmative action and this particular ab initio program. In that case we agree totally, advantages gained because of gender or ethnic background are bogus.
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Roadtrip-
Ab-initio programs have been operating in the UK for almost 40 years, they are a proven way of getting good quality pilots
The training is intensive and of extremely high quality...
I have plenty of friends who are first officers on a variety of aircraft from the Dash-8 to the A330 and they are all excellent and safe airline pilots, they all had between 170 and 300 hours when they got their airline jobs.
Despite your reservations about low houred pilots European Airlines have used this method for decades and Western Europe's safety record is certainly no worse than the USA's.
It seems that the USA system is more reliant on quantity of hours, the European system on quality of hours.
LP
Ab-initio programs have been operating in the UK for almost 40 years, they are a proven way of getting good quality pilots
The training is intensive and of extremely high quality...
I have plenty of friends who are first officers on a variety of aircraft from the Dash-8 to the A330 and they are all excellent and safe airline pilots, they all had between 170 and 300 hours when they got their airline jobs.
Despite your reservations about low houred pilots European Airlines have used this method for decades and Western Europe's safety record is certainly no worse than the USA's.
It seems that the USA system is more reliant on quantity of hours, the European system on quality of hours.
LP
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looney, a 170 hr Dash 8 FO?---those had better be some serious "quality" hours, like astronaut or something. The US has been able to rely on quantity of hours because we have an extensive general aviation base that Europe does not. Europe's early reliance on ab initio training programs is a matter of necessity, not a philosophical choice.
mwashi, that was one confusing post. US political concerns over women in COMBAT aircraft and their possible exposure to a COMBAT situation are what drove that policy, historically. Women have been taking advantage of military flight training for many years. Even, recently, combat aircraft(with unfortunate results). The rest of your response was emotional and illogical drivle. Whether or not I have a daughter would have no bearing on a ridiculous, wrong minded, and discriminatory practice.
mwashi, that was one confusing post. US political concerns over women in COMBAT aircraft and their possible exposure to a COMBAT situation are what drove that policy, historically. Women have been taking advantage of military flight training for many years. Even, recently, combat aircraft(with unfortunate results). The rest of your response was emotional and illogical drivle. Whether or not I have a daughter would have no bearing on a ridiculous, wrong minded, and discriminatory practice.
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Roadtrip,
None of the US airlines are forced to get into an ab initio type of training for their pilot. Delta decides to do this on their own. So if you work for Delta, I suggest you should take it to ALPA. If it bothers you that much, then take Delta to court.
As for the guy who said I was too emotional: I am a real woman, it's my nature. As for the illogical part: I was trying to make some of you view the situation on a different angle without calling anyone a name. I guess i can't have an intellectual discussion with some narrow minded people.
Well, I guess some of you know how it feels to be on the disadvantage side. It hurts, doesn't it?
Get used to it, and good luck to you.
Case closed,
See you in other forums and threads.
None of the US airlines are forced to get into an ab initio type of training for their pilot. Delta decides to do this on their own. So if you work for Delta, I suggest you should take it to ALPA. If it bothers you that much, then take Delta to court.
As for the guy who said I was too emotional: I am a real woman, it's my nature. As for the illogical part: I was trying to make some of you view the situation on a different angle without calling anyone a name. I guess i can't have an intellectual discussion with some narrow minded people.
Well, I guess some of you know how it feels to be on the disadvantage side. It hurts, doesn't it?
Get used to it, and good luck to you.
Case closed,
See you in other forums and threads.
British Airways have been putting 200hr guys and gals into heavy jets operating out of the London TMA since 1963.
Without incident.
'Nuff said.
WWW
Without incident.
'Nuff said.
WWW
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Generally, hours criteria is only one aspect of ones qualifications. Experience is another. Military aviators get hired more easily because their training is of known quality and they have ample experience in complex fast jets or heavy jets. A military aviator may get hired with 2500 hours while a civlian regional guy might have 5000- but the civlian guy accrews those hours alot faster. Ab initio training is VERY expensive and VERY time consuming and what do you have in the end? A 200 hour well trained pilot, but still practically zero real experience. US airlines haven't had to do ab initio programs in a very long time. There's no need to. We can get better, experienced pilots with proven track records that can be flying the line in 10-12 weeks. In Europe there must be a severe shortage of experienced aviators if airlines need to put 200 hour pilots in a airliner. Of course, if you don't need to make a profit like BA evidently doesn't need to, then sure, knock yourself out guys, hire 'em off the street with nothing more than a good attitude and good test scores and dump tons of money into your training budget -- unless you're applying to Delta's program, then you have to have the right skin color or hormones.
That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.
Brad - Don't get put-off by mwashi. She doesn't have a logical/moral arguement, so she does what "real women" sometime do - get mad and have a tizzy.
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.
Brad - Don't get put-off by mwashi. She doesn't have a logical/moral arguement, so she does what "real women" sometime do - get mad and have a tizzy.
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]
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To all the Yanks out there who are knocking ab initio training and low hours pilots, maybe it is just the quality of US flight training that is making you nervous? I spent 2 months training in the States, with the instruction that I was to return to England with an extra 70 hrs. Now I already had 120hrs pottering about in the UK, and I can honestly say that in 70 hrs of US instruction I learnt nothing new. I tried everything I could think of to coax the instructor into teaching me something - anything - flying related, but he had no pearls of wisdom. Maybe the fact that he kept on muttering about how unfair it was that I would be flying a 737 in less than a year and he would still be hour building had something to do with it.
Ab initio training works well for BA, BM, KLM, Lufthansa, Swissair, Air France, SAS..... I could go on all day. The training is thorough and the standards high. It is a real shame the USA has to give a bad taste to something that should be welcomed with open arms. It should be your ability to fly that makes you a pilot, not your ability to throw money at it.
Oh, and hands up those who have never been a low hours pilot.
Ab initio training works well for BA, BM, KLM, Lufthansa, Swissair, Air France, SAS..... I could go on all day. The training is thorough and the standards high. It is a real shame the USA has to give a bad taste to something that should be welcomed with open arms. It should be your ability to fly that makes you a pilot, not your ability to throw money at it.
Oh, and hands up those who have never been a low hours pilot.