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Spanair accident at Madrid

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Spanair accident at Madrid

Old 30th Aug 2008, 08:13
  #1281 (permalink)  
pasoundman
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snowfalcon2

Also please consider that only the passenger weights are unknown; weights of the empty airplane, the fuel and cargo are already available with high precision. Passenger weight is on the order of 25-30% of the airplane's total weight.

Weighing the fully loaded airplane pre-takeoff, assuming a 2% accuracy, is therefore about equally accurate as obtaining the passenger weight with about 7% accuracy. Evidently the present system works well enough so that the proposed airplane scales would not be a cost effective improvement.
This is really amazingly retrograde thinking. Modern electronics with accurate load cells could easily establish the REAL take-off weight. Any deviation from the load sheet could then be quickly investigated. Correcting for lift in wind isn't an insuperable problem.
 
Old 30th Aug 2008, 08:19
  #1282 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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katya1971 posted:

C'mon agusaleale...the river is SO small...
Oh yes, I´ve got surprised also, but the thing is that when I asked the same question, he told me that in some places the depth was more than a meter and a half!
And of course, they where unconscious too.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 08:23
  #1283 (permalink)  
 
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I will be most surprised if the cause is found to be anything other than the fact that the Flaps were raised instead of the the Gear. The least complex fault is generally the most likely.
It may well be that there are other mitigating factors such as the weight, the wind or maybe others but these should not have been sufficient, even collectively, to have produced the catastrophic event which occurred.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 08:42
  #1284 (permalink)  
 
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PanzerJohn/Daily Mail;

However, instead of repairing the fault, mechanics used wire to block the sheet which directs the air flow as a temporary measure. This was in line with Spanish air safety regulations.
Yikes.. so this is what STOWED means....

This is how I used to fix my car 20 years ago. Might be a bit more advanced
method used here, but wire certainly doesn't like vibrations,
bending and temperature changes. Could definitely be a chance the
wire somehow came off when takeoff thrust was set after having been
stressed for 3 days.
I guess there would be no warning lights on the panel since the
system was deactivated.
This also means it maybe could have been a "partial" bucket
deployment which explains the extra runway use.

Another possibility is that only the upper half bucket deployed
which could explain the initial left wing drop reported by one passenger,
since this would direct the thrust on the right engine down.

Attach the "In flight reverser deploy checklist".

XPM


Last edited by XPMorten; 30th Aug 2008 at 09:02.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 08:48
  #1285 (permalink)  
 
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yeap I have had numerous chaps try and raise the flaps as against the gear.....now on the 737 and airbuses I think the leading edges stay out irrespective of position below a certain speed...148kts? Whats the Story on the MD?
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 08:54
  #1286 (permalink)  
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The relatives of the victims of the Spanair flight will never know the conversations betwen the pilots that are recorded in the black boxes, because they are submitted to a "confidentiality code", said Javier Mendoza, Spanair´s vicedirector to one hundred of relatives in Hotel Auditorium in Madrid. He showed them the photos and draws of the black boxes and their position in a plane like the one that suffered the accident. "The recordings will never become public", insisted, and will only be used for investigations to be done by the comission designed to study the case.
Not the actual audio perhaps but I've seen dozens of transcripts of CVR recordings.
 
Old 30th Aug 2008, 09:05
  #1287 (permalink)  
pasoundman
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el #
On the investigations side, I learn from Spanish media, that Spanair had denied relatives access to CVR recording, meaning it has been listened already by someone.
This is standard practice. In due course a transcript will be made available but unlikely the original recording. ALL accident investigations work like this.
 
Old 30th Aug 2008, 09:08
  #1288 (permalink)  
pasoundman
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overthewing
(I've spent years of my professional life untangling problems where the real cause is often nothing to do with the visible symptoms, and something about that warning light niggles me.)
I know exactly how you feel but in this case it does appear to be a simple minor malfunction.
 
Old 30th Aug 2008, 09:14
  #1289 (permalink)  
 
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I think this was in 1987

Location: Romulus, Michigan
Airline: NWA Northwest Airlines
Aircraft: McDonnell Douglas Super MD-80 (MD-82)
Registration: N312RC
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 154:155 +2
Details: The aircraft stalled and crashed during takeoff from Metro Airport. A 4-year-old girl was the only survivor. Slats and flaps not extended. Crew's failure to use taxi checklist to ensure flaps and slats were extended. Lack of electrical power to the aircraft takeoff warning system.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 09:36
  #1290 (permalink)  
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-They say Barajas Airport is 610m above sea level. They quote temperature as being 28º (I've read 29º and 30º on different places).
Sounds fine doesn't it ?

Until you factor in the excess temp over tarmac. Formula One racers know ALL about this.

Just another potential cause. It usually takes several for an accident.
 
Old 30th Aug 2008, 09:37
  #1291 (permalink)  
 
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Rananim Post 1282:

Well said re checklist handling. I would add one extra item:

Pilot reading "challenge" to look at the switch in order to ensure that the response (usually from the PF in most SOPs) matches the actual position of the switch/control etc.

In the past week, I have been very disappointed to find 3 different FOs that I flew with, none of whom looked/checked to see if my responses were actually in agreement with switch positions. This really is the final "closing of the loop" in 2-crew operations where different people perform some or part of the actions. It is necessary as one cannot always rely on good error-tolerant design to always catch the problem. A takeoff configuration warning system has been standard on transport category a/c for many years, but it's not much use if the power to it is lost, for example.

Checking that the flap lever is actually firmly in the takeoff detent is a good habit as is visually checking anything that can be seen. It just might save your neck one day.
Airmanship is just a list of good habits that other good airmen taught us as we learned the profession. Unfortunately we're not born with it.

Most of all, ensuring that the FO feels fully confident in calling out anything that (s)he's not happy with is essential to proper CRM. This can only be provided by the Captain's attitude.

Many thanks to PJ2 for all his (always) considered and informative responses to every technical discussion in particular the TAM accident and this one. What a pity to hear that he's now retired. Hopefully not lost to the profession. Thank you sir and I and many others hope to continue to hear and learn from you.

Sid
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 10:02
  #1292 (permalink)  
 
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Green-dot;

Xander posted that comment at #1280 - I haven't flown the MD80 series, just the DC9-10 and 30 series. I don't want to answer for him but I think the following comments you made are correct:

Quote:
What you are explaining is that on the MD82, in case of a TR unlocked/deployed during take off, the affected thrust lever will not retard to idle, will not disengage auto-throttle (if applicable) and there is no alert inhibit above 80kt upto 1000ft AGL? In other words if i understand you correctly, the thrust lever will remain in the position as commanded and there is no alert inhibit any time during any of the take off phases?Unquote

I agree with these statements and I think xander's comments are correct.

The MD80 fleet-type is not a FADEC-equipped engine installation. FADEC controls the reverse deployment on the 320/340 fleet types, (CFM56 installation) and has the capability to reduce the engine to IDLE if it senses an unlocked reverser.
P2J, my apologies for the mixup between you and xander and thank you for your explanation and clarification.

I would think, the MD82 not being FADEC equipped, there would be a provision in the mechanical interlock to retard the thrust lever to idle in case of an uncommanded TR deployment. Apparently this is not the case on the MD82.

Also I understand there is a difference in operational philosophy between the type I have worked on (Fokker 70 and 100) which inhibit certain alerts- and the MD8x series which apparently do not inhibit certain alerts during some stages of the takeoff phase.

Regards,
Green-dot
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 10:13
  #1293 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever system logic you have on different types, shouldn´t a warning as essential as an uncommanded TR deployment always come on? I would find it rather strange if that annunciation wouldn´t come on until climbing through 1000' ?
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 12:03
  #1294 (permalink)  
 
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Details from image mentioned above. The bent bracketry - is this part of the Slat extension mechanism?

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 12:09
  #1295 (permalink)  
 
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"(and if so, does the leading edge detail show anything useful?)

Well yes it does. It shows the slats were in TO position, but were ripped away during the crash. Those two "arms" you see, sticking out of the holes on the leading edge, attach to the inside surface of the slat panel.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 12:15
  #1296 (permalink)  
 
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It shows the slats were in TO position,
(Let's hope.) What does that say about possible Flap selections.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 12:25
  #1297 (permalink)  
 
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The flaps are still there, down to about 15 (hence the hole to the right of the aileron, and the ridge of the flaps. Another part of the wing is to the back right of the photograph (follow the hose). Same story.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 12:32
  #1298 (permalink)  
 
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From what I know, There is a flaps "0" position where slats are in TO mode, otherwise flaps will certainly be extended....at least to 11 degrees.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 12:44
  #1299 (permalink)  
 
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And with that went the most common speculation......

Where to now?

Would an open reverser with TO thrust applied drag this plane out of the air? An open bucket and idle thrust has proven manageable in the past.
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Old 30th Aug 2008, 12:59
  #1300 (permalink)  
 
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Would an open reverser with TO thrust applied drag this plane out of the air?
At V2 almost certainly, combined with any asymmetrics would think quite unmanageable, gear still down as well....
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