5th freedom in the USA
Join Date: Jul 1998
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raas767:
Pan Am used to have a number of fifth-freedom routes out of FRA and to a lesser extent, LHR. PA based a number of B727s there. (Recall the Lockebie bomb originated in FRA on a PA B727. Also, I believe TW had some beyond rights from LHR, too. Recall a hijacked TW B727 from Athens that ended up in Beirut. As most of you should know, the B727 did not have the range to cross the Pond.) The FRA rights were assigned to DL when DL bought PA's trans-Atlantic operations, sans LHR. I believe Bombay/Mumbai is DL's only fifth-freedom route out of FRA now.
As the range capability of new aircraft has improved over the years, nearly all major European destinations can be served by nonstop flights. Secondary destinations are more effectively served by codesharing than basing a few planes in a foreign destination.
On the Pacific side, not all major destinations can be served nonstop. That's why NRT is still an effective foreign hub for NW and UA.
Pan Am used to have a number of fifth-freedom routes out of FRA and to a lesser extent, LHR. PA based a number of B727s there. (Recall the Lockebie bomb originated in FRA on a PA B727. Also, I believe TW had some beyond rights from LHR, too. Recall a hijacked TW B727 from Athens that ended up in Beirut. As most of you should know, the B727 did not have the range to cross the Pond.) The FRA rights were assigned to DL when DL bought PA's trans-Atlantic operations, sans LHR. I believe Bombay/Mumbai is DL's only fifth-freedom route out of FRA now.
As the range capability of new aircraft has improved over the years, nearly all major European destinations can be served by nonstop flights. Secondary destinations are more effectively served by codesharing than basing a few planes in a foreign destination.
On the Pacific side, not all major destinations can be served nonstop. That's why NRT is still an effective foreign hub for NW and UA.
Here we go again. I am from the US and fly within the US, seldom to Canada. The legal difference between European States and states within the US is fairly obvious. However, I have some sympathy for European (British etc) pilots' resentment toward the operational reality regarding US airlines which fly cargo etc within Europe, especially on bread-and-butter routes, and the protections in place here against cabotage.
On the other hand, if one's US company says: there will be a 727 base in Paris (i.e. FEDEX), and if senior pilots do not bid to be based there, it will be assigned to and forced upon junior 727 pilots-you must go or lose your job, in theory and reality. One of our FOs flew in his previous job as a DC-8 FO for Emery (based in Ohio). They had some two-day layovers in Brussels, which he really enjoyed. They also operated into Spain or whereever else.
Why did the European associations, or whatever they are called, allow this? Was it trade pressure from the US?
On the other hand, if one's US company says: there will be a 727 base in Paris (i.e. FEDEX), and if senior pilots do not bid to be based there, it will be assigned to and forced upon junior 727 pilots-you must go or lose your job, in theory and reality. One of our FOs flew in his previous job as a DC-8 FO for Emery (based in Ohio). They had some two-day layovers in Brussels, which he really enjoyed. They also operated into Spain or whereever else.
Why did the European associations, or whatever they are called, allow this? Was it trade pressure from the US?
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Some of that authority is left over from air agreements signed right after the end of the second world war. I don't know if cargo was one of them, but other examples include PanAm's base in Berlin, and TWA's base in Paris, I believe it was. These agreements were extremely liberal and allowed these two carriers vast access to Europe and beyond. I think it all ended after the wall came down.
