Pilots: Pressured to cut fuel
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fuel
why dont we make changes to the law, or sop's to allow pilots to load a/c without management ever being involved till after the flight has commenced, that would put sole reliance on the PIC and make for a safer and less interfered with flight.
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You know, I have some friends on the "west" side and it seems to me that the "east" side guys should be thanking the gods that they have a job. If it wasn't fom AmWest buying them, all of them would have been on the street. I work with a number of furloughed "east" guys and I have never seen such overall negative and self centered attitudes. They are an absolute pain in the ass to fly with. Damn idiots! Good luck to you "west" guys in your upheaval.
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I hear that the Pilot's Union has taken out full page ads to put their point of view to the public.
I suspect this conflict will run and run until either the price of fuel drops below $70/bbl (unlikely) or the poor old airline folds.
I suspect this conflict will run and run until either the price of fuel drops below $70/bbl (unlikely) or the poor old airline folds.
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I suspect....
I know nothing about this, but I suspect that the fuel issue is not the true, underlying issue. I suspect these guys ####ed off management for one unrelated reason or another, and management is pulling this nonsense. (Feel free to substitute another eight-letter word for 'nonsense'.)
Discipline checkrides are nothing new to the industry. Fortunately, the union is involved in training, and most training instructors/examiners are good union blokes who put ethics above brown-nosing the management pukes.
Almost 40 years ago, when I started my airline career, I flew with some of the finest airmen. Learned a lot from them. These guys had more time in airplanes than I had in a 'T' shirt. Tens of thousands of hours, no accidents, no incidents, no violations....they ran a good ship. And, many of them mixed with management (and the training department) like oil mixes with water.
So, without knowing the details of all of this..."The rest of the story".... I really can't comment further, except to say that, historically, airline managements proved their stupidity in many, many ways.
From what I hear, these guys are 30-year-plus captains...no accidents, incidents, or violations...and some low-time numb-nuts is going to tell them how to fly an airplane...
Yep, some things never change....
Fly Safe,
PantLoad
Discipline checkrides are nothing new to the industry. Fortunately, the union is involved in training, and most training instructors/examiners are good union blokes who put ethics above brown-nosing the management pukes.
Almost 40 years ago, when I started my airline career, I flew with some of the finest airmen. Learned a lot from them. These guys had more time in airplanes than I had in a 'T' shirt. Tens of thousands of hours, no accidents, no incidents, no violations....they ran a good ship. And, many of them mixed with management (and the training department) like oil mixes with water.
So, without knowing the details of all of this..."The rest of the story".... I really can't comment further, except to say that, historically, airline managements proved their stupidity in many, many ways.
From what I hear, these guys are 30-year-plus captains...no accidents, incidents, or violations...and some low-time numb-nuts is going to tell them how to fly an airplane...
Yep, some things never change....
Fly Safe,
PantLoad
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Quote.....From what I hear, these guys are 30-year-plus captains...no accidents, incidents, or violations...and some low-time numb-nuts is going to tell them how to fly an airplane...
that statement just blows me away...."some low time numb-nut"...you sound like the low time numb-nut.....look in the mirror mate,and say that to yourself!!......no low time numb-nut is involved in this,except numb-nuts like yourself....we are a little further down the road than that...try and stay with the plot will you???
being a 30-yr plus Capt doesnt make you right....these jokers are using scare tactics to try and prove a point...and their point is pathetic...they bring nothing but scare-mongering to a public that pays our wages and who in essence(east USAirways) have no right to ruin our profession....you sound like one of them...try to look at the real picture here....read the previous posts to this thread and look at this issue objectively...if its possible.....no wonder this industry is in the state it,s in....
that statement just blows me away...."some low time numb-nut"...you sound like the low time numb-nut.....look in the mirror mate,and say that to yourself!!......no low time numb-nut is involved in this,except numb-nuts like yourself....we are a little further down the road than that...try and stay with the plot will you???
being a 30-yr plus Capt doesnt make you right....these jokers are using scare tactics to try and prove a point...and their point is pathetic...they bring nothing but scare-mongering to a public that pays our wages and who in essence(east USAirways) have no right to ruin our profession....you sound like one of them...try to look at the real picture here....read the previous posts to this thread and look at this issue objectively...if its possible.....no wonder this industry is in the state it,s in....
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Why did this turn into an East vs. West topic??? I think the point of the topic at hand is......Should a Captain be able to exercise his/her authority without the fear of displinary action from the company??? This is the underlying question. Granted, the drama of it all is over the top, but where does it end??? What happens if a Captain diverts to abc airport for an emergency, then management terminates the Captain because they feel he/she should have diverted to xyz airport???? As the Captain, your paid to use all available information at the time and make an educated/experienced decision. Fear of action from management should not enter into the equation.
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I dunno....
Pakeha-Boy,
No, I am not 'one of them'.....I was simply guessing why all this is going on.
I've re-read the posts, and I still think that fuel is not the underlying issue. Can't comment on East/West or North/South or Black/White...
I retired from my airline job four years ago. Tens of thousands of hours, no accidents, incidents, or violations. Training instructor background.
Please don't attack me personally. I neither agree nor disagree with you. I was simply expressing my thoughts based on what I've heard, read, and read here in this thread...trying to piece together everything to determine the truth.
Assuming that my thoughts are correct...that is, an additional 20 minutes of fuel is not the real issue...why did management single out these eight guys? USAirways has got...what...over 5000 pilots...and only these eight have asked for additional fuel? There's got to be something more to the story.
And, why a checkride? Back in my union days, my contract specified that managment couldn't do that....(get upset with a pilot and give him an unscheduled checkride)
But, I can tell you, there are airlines in the world that give unscheduled line checks when they're upset with a guy. The guy usually fails...many times the reasons given are incorrect... The guys gets on his knees in the chief pilot's office...says he's sorry...takes another line check (without further training) and magically passes.
Right, wrong, or otherwise....just remember, this can happen to you. You cross the chief pilot some day for something...and you're suddenly a sub-standard pilot. I guess these days, it's not hard to find an instructor who is willing to participate in this nonsense....i.e. he/she hasn't the guts to stand up to the fleet manager and say this stuff is wrong.
My last post on this...going back to technical issues.
Fly Safe,
PantLoad
No, I am not 'one of them'.....I was simply guessing why all this is going on.
I've re-read the posts, and I still think that fuel is not the underlying issue. Can't comment on East/West or North/South or Black/White...
I retired from my airline job four years ago. Tens of thousands of hours, no accidents, incidents, or violations. Training instructor background.
Please don't attack me personally. I neither agree nor disagree with you. I was simply expressing my thoughts based on what I've heard, read, and read here in this thread...trying to piece together everything to determine the truth.
Assuming that my thoughts are correct...that is, an additional 20 minutes of fuel is not the real issue...why did management single out these eight guys? USAirways has got...what...over 5000 pilots...and only these eight have asked for additional fuel? There's got to be something more to the story.
And, why a checkride? Back in my union days, my contract specified that managment couldn't do that....(get upset with a pilot and give him an unscheduled checkride)
But, I can tell you, there are airlines in the world that give unscheduled line checks when they're upset with a guy. The guy usually fails...many times the reasons given are incorrect... The guys gets on his knees in the chief pilot's office...says he's sorry...takes another line check (without further training) and magically passes.
Right, wrong, or otherwise....just remember, this can happen to you. You cross the chief pilot some day for something...and you're suddenly a sub-standard pilot. I guess these days, it's not hard to find an instructor who is willing to participate in this nonsense....i.e. he/she hasn't the guts to stand up to the fleet manager and say this stuff is wrong.
My last post on this...going back to technical issues.
Fly Safe,
PantLoad
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I agree with the earlier comment about correct pax and bag weights. The airline I work for did a survey over a period of time and the weights were found to be consistently under. So they came up with a new set of weights so that the ZFM was realistic. Crews began to see that an accurate ZFM resulted in landing with excess fuel and began reducing fuel loads as the estimated weights were now actually fairly accurate. Then the airline merged and we are back to square 1.
Pilots take extra fuel because in many cases the estimated load weight is wrong, and lets face it, when you get the actual loadsheet (around 2 minutes before pushback!!!) you are hardly going to say "hang on, get the fueller back, we are heavier than planned and I want an extra 200kgs" now are you?
So - note to airlines - provide pilots with accurate estimate load figures and they can calculate an accurate estimated fuel load!!!
Pilots take extra fuel because in many cases the estimated load weight is wrong, and lets face it, when you get the actual loadsheet (around 2 minutes before pushback!!!) you are hardly going to say "hang on, get the fueller back, we are heavier than planned and I want an extra 200kgs" now are you?
So - note to airlines - provide pilots with accurate estimate load figures and they can calculate an accurate estimated fuel load!!!
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But, I can tell you, there are airlines in the world that give unscheduled line checks when they're upset with a guy. The guy usually fails...many times the reasons given are incorrect... The guys gets on his knees in the chief pilot's office...says he's sorry...takes another line check (without further training) and magically passes.
Calling in sick and jumpseats are other areas of personal responsibility and command authority that have been politicized. One of the other 'scab unions'
got taken to the woodshed by a Texas judge over a sickout a few years ago. Remember the "Jumpseat Protection List"? Now the guys that crossed at Continental have ALPA cards and the ever vigilant US Air guys don't. Wonder who gets to ride now?Some of these stunts to show the company who is boss severely weaken Captain's Authority in my opinion. By cracky, in the old days, the captain could pretty much do what he wanted and as long as he didn't crash, it would rarely be questioned.
I remember riding with a Piedmont 737 crew that used no checklists and just after takeoff the captain put a set of speakers on the glareshield to play music from his brand new gadget, a CD player. We had a good time, didn't crash but years later I'm not so sure this was the safest way to do things. Times have changed and I'm sure even the old Piedmont boys know how to read checklists by now. Well, maybe, anyway.
The next round of bankruptcies start later in the year so all this discussion and posturing about seniority lists and fuel may be moot. We don't have Lorenzo to blame things on this time so now the Great Satan at US Air is, unfortunately, each other.
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Quote pantload....."and some low-time numb-nuts is going to tell them how to fly an airplane"
to whom then were you referring??? if its mgt,then I doubt most of them fly...Id agree with the statement if it s actually aimed at mgt...so ditto...I stand corrected if thats what you meant...????nothing personal...accept my apology....
This subject has nothing to do with the Capts Authority...This has to to with wasting fuel,making incorrect statements,dragging fellow pilots through the mud,professional dishonesty,and a loss of a moral compass.
We all know the "leap" that one makes when you upgrade to the position of Capt,It comes with a lot of "baggage"....and when certain individuals take those responsibilties and throw then around with reckless abandonment,then we all pay the price....and most of us would be unwilling to allow such a small majority to use the issues for personal/political agendas(which is exactly what this is)....all involved have had nothing taken away...they are merely being asked to justify their actions...something that is ultimately a part of our responsesibilities......justify you actions....nothing more,nothing less..like it or not,the Capt is held to a higher standard..
to whom then were you referring??? if its mgt,then I doubt most of them fly...Id agree with the statement if it s actually aimed at mgt...so ditto...I stand corrected if thats what you meant...????nothing personal...accept my apology....
This subject has nothing to do with the Capts Authority...This has to to with wasting fuel,making incorrect statements,dragging fellow pilots through the mud,professional dishonesty,and a loss of a moral compass.
We all know the "leap" that one makes when you upgrade to the position of Capt,It comes with a lot of "baggage"....and when certain individuals take those responsibilties and throw then around with reckless abandonment,then we all pay the price....and most of us would be unwilling to allow such a small majority to use the issues for personal/political agendas(which is exactly what this is)....all involved have had nothing taken away...they are merely being asked to justify their actions...something that is ultimately a part of our responsesibilities......justify you actions....nothing more,nothing less..like it or not,the Capt is held to a higher standard..
